F-35 - Debunking the critics

[RayS]

[Adam the Akrodude]

Hey Ray S

That's the new (and lower cost) paint scheme - saves a few million across the program. Great thing for modellers is not having to worry about those pesky different shaded RAM panels on the upper fuselage, even though they look kinda cool. Only the two 2OCU birds will sport that original paint scheme until repainted - if that ever happens. As I understand it, the painting process is very elaborate and the coating is more bonded/cured onto the structure - it's very tough. F-22 requires special footwear when walking on top of the aircraft. Normal boots are fine on the F-35 I've read.

Great symbol for 3 Sqn on the fin isn't it!

[Adam the Akrodude]

The fact is, if the cloak of stealth gets penetrated, then it's going to cause a lot of problems for anyone with the F-35. It's been proven that stealth can be detected, it's been done in the past and it's why any time the F-117 was deployed, it operated with conventional jamming, just how much the US has never released publicly but the suspicion is that the radar jamming deployed with them was extensive.

There's no such thing as the "cloak of stealth". Even B-2s have been detected at long range. Just because you know "something" is out there, does not mean one can do anything about it. There is a huge difference between detection, tracking, targeting and ultimately getting the kill - that whole "kill chain" thing. The whole concept of LO tech and tactics is not to get detected at all - staying outside the "bubble" of detection and attacking on ones terms - not the enemies. I learnt something valuable when having a chat to a F-22 driver once at Avalon. I made the half-joking remark - "it must be awesome screaming along at FL600 with your hair on fire!". F-22 driver responded - "No sir! We dynamically alter our altitude and speed to remain undetected". So, it's not all about just screaming along at the speed of heat (another great way to get detected by IRST).

It's always been known that "stealth" aircraft can be detected - that's never been a secret. What it's about is shrinking that detection bubble so that stealth aircraft can operate way closer to both air and ground targets without being detected and get off those all important first shots. They can shoot off the "long sticks" before the bad guys have any idea of just where they are. Of course jamming is a required element. The only time a stealth aircraft was shot down was when there was no jamming involved. The Navy Prowlers were not close enough. F-117s were largely manned cruise missiles - very simple systems and had no jamming. They had a basic RHAWs system, but the antennas were usually retracted when in attack. That 117 had no idea it was targeted and was pretty close to that Serbian missile battery when hit. What this event revealed was complacency and poor tactics by the USAF - they got slack. F-35 is totally different in that it has the most advanced EW/EA system ever put in a fighter - the highly classified AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda manufactured by BAE. This system works with the APG-81 AESA radar and there has been rumours that this system is so powerful, not only can it jam but due to the directional beam focusing AESAs have, it can in fact burn out components on threat radars. F-35 AESA it's claimed can even jam the F-22 AESA. There are rumours that this system can transmit viruses as well - why not, it's just transmitting digital code.

RAAF very cleverly is hedging its bets by getting the E-18G as well (in line with the USN philosophy on jamming) - only other nation to get this amazing asset. Coming soon is the Next Generation Jammer. F-35 is a vital piece in the jigsaw that also includes JORN, E-7, P-8, MQ-4, E-18G and all the relevant stand off weapons. The "cloak of stealth" you mention won't ever be penetrated. I'm not sure if you get just how sophisticated the RAAF has now become. Check out also the stat's of the stand off weapons the F-35 will bring to the fight - currently including LGBs, JDAMs (GBU-31 & 32), SDB - types both I & II (SDB II will have moving target capability), JSM, AARGM-ER. Hugely important is the ability for F-35s to provide targeting to Aegis/SM-6 systems - this is a major thing.

Revisiting detection of stealth, using performance data of Russian air and ground based radar systems - both claim to be able to detect (detect mind you, not track and offer firing solutions) 1 metre square RCS targets at approx. 300kms. WOW, that indeed does sound impressive. But hang on, RCS of F-35 is said to be around the size of a gold ball, around 0.005 sq metres. So, using some basic maths, this means that Nebo-M can detect F-35s at around 15-20 miles or so, perhaps even less than this. From memory, that F-117 was detected at around 15-20 miles or so from the SAM battery. No one has ever said that should a F-35, F-22, B-2, F-117 fly directly over or very near a SAM battery it won't get shot down. The HUGE difference between the F-117 and the F-35 is that it has on-board the most sophisticated and powerful EW/EA suites ever put in a fighter and it has the ability to detect, jam and destroy IADS such as Nebo-M, S-300/400/500, etc. Nebo/S-300/400 systems will be detected at hundreds of miles away once they transmit and not sure if you've seen the resolution of both the APG-81 in SAR mode and the DAS/EOTS in the F-35, but DAS can pick up a missile launch at 300+ miles and it's resolution easily makes out windows in a building at 40+ miles. Resolution of the APG-81 in SAR mode must be better than say +/- 1 metre. What I'm getting at is that bad guy IADS will be detected and targeted well before F-35s are detected, tracked and targeted. Does this make them completely invulnerable - no, of course not as shit happens in war. The outcomes though would be a LOT worse for the other side. BTW, Russia currently has about 15 or so NEBO-M radar systems with a few though on order. Since 2010, Russia has built 9 Su-57 prototypes and may have a test squadron or two by the mid-2020's. By that time there will be around 1000 F-35s actually in operation in several air forces around the world. There are already 300+ F-35s and they are rolling off the production line at LRIP of around 70 per year. This will go up to well over 100 per year at full rate production - that's when the cost comes way down.

It's game over bad guys.

Have some faith - those in the know and responsible for all this in the RAAF know what they are doing. The jigsaw is almost complete and the RAAF will be the most advanced air force in the world come 2025. I personally think this is something to be pretty chuffed about. The RAAF has come a LONG way since once being described by a former CAS as a AMEX Gold Card flying club!

[Michel]

Some butts are looking pretty good don't you think guys?

[tor lives]

BUTT UGLY!!!
TOR

[Adam the Akrodude]

Some butts are looking pretty good don't you think guys?

To quote a lyric from the immortal band Spinal Tap song Big Bottoms - "the bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"



Sorry Michel, the Rafale is soooo 20th Century man. Pretty bird sure, but looks alone don't cut it anymore in the 21st Century man! Who'd you prefer by your side in a fight - Bridget Bardot or Sigourney Weaver - just sayin!

Seriously though, what is the French Air Force going to do - no 5th Gen for at least 20+ years and that's only IF a Franco-German consortium can come together to build one. It will be as long a wait as the Typhoon (most of which don't even have AESA radars yet!).

[Michel]

I am far from an expert, so I can't really comment, not sure if it was a good idea to have posted a message here actually...

Adam, De Gaulle decided in the 60's that the French Defense should not depend on other countries, therefore the French Defense had a lot of equipment made in France, and they still do at some point. Is it a good idea? when it come to defense, I believe it make sense somewhere, to not depend on another country.
Here again, I am not an expert...

[BradG]

I hope you're right Adam. Thing is, if it really is a lemon, will we really know about it? I just can't believe that if the F-35 sucks, they will allow anyone who knows to come out and say so. Just imagine a pilot at an airshow saying "yeh so this is our F-35, it's basically one expensive piece of shit that can't do what they said it could, but you know, it flies ok". Not gunna happen lol.

[Adam the Akrodude]

I am far from an expert, so I can't really comment, not sure if it was a good idea to have posted a message here actually...

Adam, De Gaulle decided in the 60's that the French Defense should not depend on other countries, therefore the French Defense had a lot of equipment made in France, and they still do at some point. Is it a good idea? when it come to defense, I believe it make sense somewhere, to not depend on another country.
Here again, I am not an expert...

Same here Michel, I'm far from being a expert on this topic. I am lucky in that with my interest in the F-35, I do have a "mentor" who is a ex-RAAF pilot involved in the "man-in-the-loop" testing of the sim's who has guided me on some very complex topics/subjects in this program - of course nothing sensitive or classified, all public domain stuff. I believe those working on this program are some of if not the smartest people in aerospace - very very smart people. There is a lot of info out there on the program now if one bothers to look.

Totally agreed on the ability for a country to be self-sufficient. Due to the complexity of this tech, it's beyond the reach of most nations to develop true 5th Gen. USA barely afforded the F-22 and future funding is suffering due to the cost and size of the F-35 program. Russia is close to 2 decades behind with their Su-57 program relative to the F-22 and they never will have many of them - not with their economy being 1/10th that of USA's alone. Indian Air Force don't particularly want the FGFA (Indian Su-57) - they've publically stated it's not competitive against the F-35. RuAF hasn't shown much interest either as it offers little more than the Su-35 at a great deal more Roubles! China is also many years behind with their J-20 and who knows when it will actually fly with the right engines and functional AESA radar and sensor suite - it's a show pony at the moment and in very early development despite the propaganda being released saying it's "operational" which is of course complete bullshit.

UK will not I think develop their own 5th Gen fighter - it's the F-35 for them. BAE has been working on drones. France & Germany have signed a agreement to co-develop a 5th Gen. This will take a couple of decades before appearing into the squadrons - that's just how long it takes. As mentioned, most Typhoons have yet to receive AESA radars! I am curious to see what France does as it will be some time before it gets into 5th Gen and the Rafales will be getting pretty tired by that stage. A point in time comes when aircraft get harder and more costly to maintain - just like old cars. Canada is facing this woe right now and even considering purchasing the RAAF's tired F/A-18's! Be brilliant for our country if this happens. Canada is slipping to be very much a second string within NATO. Canada want's it's cake and to eat it as well with the F-35. They are part of the F-35 program and still paying millions to be part of it as a component supplier, yet they have not ordered the F-35 yet. They will I think eventually (next government), or lose hundreds of millions in fact billions in dollars of work as a component supplier to the program.

As well as the technology, I'm also fascinated with the politics of the program. I do think it will be very good if/when the French/German 5th Gen fighter comes to fruition. Having the smarts to develop this tech I believe has great spin offs for a nation. It costs a shit load, but all this money circulates through the economy - scientists, engineers, fabricators, assembly line workers - all highly skilled stuff. Have you read much about ceramic matrix composites now being used in jet engine tech? Pretty well any country can develop a atomic bomb, but bloody few can develop jet engines - it's really hard. China is pouring billions into their own domestic jet engine program because their material science and manufacturing processes have made it hard to even copy and enhance Russian jet engines - they can't get the life out of them (hence order for 24 or so Su-35s from Russia). USA and Europe are way ahead in jet engine development. The coming "ACE" engines for later F-35s, the coming "6th Gen" (be it PCA for USAF and the F/A-XX for the USN) and the B-21 bomber will no doubt use this "ACE" (adaptive cycle engine) tech. USA is a generation ahead of everyone in this regard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=279&v=is1BBilkyUM

On a side note, I think you mentioned/queried the complexity of these weapons systems - are they in fact too costly and too complex? It's a good question. 5th Gen can be overwhelmed by simpler and cheaper 4th Gen fighters and this has been shown at the huge USAF Red Flag exercises. The original Block 2B/3i software only allowed the carriage of 2 x AIM-120s - that's it. So it is possible to make the F-35s run out of "long sticks" is there are enough bad guys. RF 17-1 allowed the bad guys to regenerate up to 4 times. So, it basically took 80 "bad guys" to knock down 4 F-35s - mostly done my chance, just happened to be flying nearby at got visual shots. This was all within the very tight air space at the Nellis AFB Red Flag facility as well - where airspace has to be specially managed. So, the opposition would need to throw a shit load of fighters in the hope of knocking down a handful of 5th Gens. The war would be over very very quickly. There will be 3000+ F-35s coming over the next 20+ years. These will be all going to friendly and allied nations. The only other 5th Gens in development (and they are not close in terms of RCS and systems sophistication) are at least a decade perhaps more behind. All I'm trying to do is put some light onto what is actually going on.

[Adam the Akrodude]

I hope you're right Adam. Thing is, if it really is a lemon, will we really know about it? I just can't believe that if the F-35 sucks, they will allow anyone who knows to come out and say so. Just imagine a pilot at an airshow saying "yeh so this is our F-35, it's basically one expensive piece of shit that can't do what they said it could, but you know, it flies ok". Not gunna happen lol.

You cannot get thousands upon thousands of people to tell the same lie Brad. There is WAY too much info out there proving it's not just a war winner, but a war stopper. Do you think that both LM and all the various government and military agencies threaten all those involve with some kind of punishment/gaol/torture/death if they reveal all? Professional military officers are very well known for speaking their minds - remember the OBOGS issues with F-22, F-18, F-35 and the USNs T-45s? Two Raptor pilots went on 60 Minutes over the whole "Raptor lung" issue. USN T-45 instructors basically went on strike over the OBOGS issue! So it is wrong to think that professional military aviators don't voice their opinions - they do! I've also spent time watching US Senate Arms hearings on the F-35 - when the military big wigs have to sit down and explain to US senators what is going on with the program. These US generals and admirals are all professional military aviators. These people cannot get the F-35 fast enough. When one watches and listens to what they are saying, it's the complete opposite to that message coming from those wanting to drum up controversy. It's only those farthest from the program that are the most vocally critical. If the F-35 was a lemon, we'd know about it for sure. It's impossible for professional military aviators to lie about this stuff. The F-35 program is probably the most publically open military fighter program ever - that's what's made we all of us on the outside such "experts"! We of course only know but a fraction of what the F-35 is really capable of - only what we need to know. One of the big failings of this program has been both LM and the users themselves failure to adequately address the misguided critique - most of which has only been generated to stir up controversy. Most of this controversy is largely evaporating now. Why has LM got so many nations banging on it's front door for the classified brief? UAE & Germany are the latest. Indian Air Force would love to flick off the Su-57/FGFA program because they've openly said the FGFA isn't competitive against the F-35. You don't need to hope I'm right at all.