I've just been reading about the Beriev Be-200. It can carry more than twice what a CL-415 can about twice as fast and twice as far so a couple of squadrons of them would come in real handy. And they can be fitted with Rolls Royce engines. They are also airconditioned and pressurized and can be fitted with seating for 72 passengers. Is the CL-415 even airconditioned? I know that Russian products can be bought for very good prices. As the proud owner of a 1997 Lada Niva I know this from personal experience. And the parts from "over there" are much cheaper than from the one supplier here in Australia. Oh, and all the doomsayers were wrong when they said I'd have all the electrical problems in the world (so what, I'm an aircraft and auto eleco by trade) and everything would fall off it and it'd rust out in no time flat. They reckoned that Nivas only lasted about a year before they rusted out. Mine was 5 years old when I bought it and I have only replaced the tailgate and one door some years later which at that time were very reasonably priced here.
The chief of the rusting out naysayers reckoned that the cars rusted out in a year because they were made from steel quenched with salt water. I then asked him why they would need to quench the steel with salt water. His reply. "Because the steelworks is on the coast." Wrong again sunshine. They're made at a place called Togliatti in the Samara Region of Russia and the car factory has its own steelworks. I then asked him where they got the salt water from seeing that Togliatti is almost 1,600 km from the nearest salt water. He reckoned they built a pipeline to the steel works because that was cheaper than transporting huge amounts of fresh water from Lake Baikal. I dare say it would be. My next statement trumped him. I then told him that the VAZ factory had the Volga River running literally right past their front doorstep; the largest longest supply of running fresh water in Europe, summer and winter, so why would they need to build a pipeline almost 1,600 km long to supply a steelworks with salt water. I forgave him his sheepish look and gave him a small piece of fatherly advice. "We oldies might look stupid but usually we've done our research and have a lot of life experience so it would be a good idea if next time you do yours".
Regards,
RHB.
I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by RHB785 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:54 pm
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Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by Adam the Akrodude » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:19 am
Hi Ross
Doubt the Beriev is still in production is it? Personally, the think the horse has long bolted in relation to the RAAF having any significant control or assets for fire fighting. With all the deployments over to the Great Sandpit, I think the RAAF transport squadrons will have been pretty hard pressed in recent years, as no doubt has the RAAF's budget and allocation of flying hours, etc. There have been too many lost opportunities in this regard to past retired aircraft being potentially converted into aerial tankers here as we all know too well. One or two special Reserve squadrons I think would be a cool idea, but I doubt very much this would ever happen.
Leasing Nth American aerial fire fighting assets I think is the most logical and probably financially viable option, as is using them under the auspices of existing local authorities/organisations. Without a doubt, using these new aerial assets has been and still is a learning experience - how to get the most bang for buck. Obviously, the best outcome is hopefully they are not needed. Having them I believe is essential insurance though - particularly as it's potentially looking like being a nasty fire season with El Nino rearing it's ugly head already. Mistakes will probably be made as to when, where and how these leased assets are used, but hopefully lessons will be learned as experience is gained.
The issue with a domestically developed large aerial fire fighting force is the whole re-inventing the wheel aspect now and finding tasks for them to perform the other 3/4's of the year. Nth American based assets are far easier relocated to Europe and it's just a flight across the Pacific for them to get to us. The US has this massive aerial fire fighting capacity that isn't needed of course during the northern hemisphere winter, so they have understandably pitched their capabilities to our state governments, or our government(s) have contacted them - either way they are here and have been in use.
Just my amateur musings on this subject of which I admit I am certainly no expert! Don't own it - rent it I say! The question though is will successive governments continue to hire these assets during our summers, or only do so when particularly nasty fire seasons are predicted? Personally, I think it is a small price to pay for peace of mind. Anying can happen of course in the future. I never expected our air force would ever operate C-17's! Budgets are getting much tighter and with huge military programs like the F-35, new sub's etc, there ain't no way I can see a couple of aerial tanker squadrons forming. I can't see the RAAF management being enthusiastic about the idea either - not at all.
Cheers
Adam
Doubt the Beriev is still in production is it? Personally, the think the horse has long bolted in relation to the RAAF having any significant control or assets for fire fighting. With all the deployments over to the Great Sandpit, I think the RAAF transport squadrons will have been pretty hard pressed in recent years, as no doubt has the RAAF's budget and allocation of flying hours, etc. There have been too many lost opportunities in this regard to past retired aircraft being potentially converted into aerial tankers here as we all know too well. One or two special Reserve squadrons I think would be a cool idea, but I doubt very much this would ever happen.
Leasing Nth American aerial fire fighting assets I think is the most logical and probably financially viable option, as is using them under the auspices of existing local authorities/organisations. Without a doubt, using these new aerial assets has been and still is a learning experience - how to get the most bang for buck. Obviously, the best outcome is hopefully they are not needed. Having them I believe is essential insurance though - particularly as it's potentially looking like being a nasty fire season with El Nino rearing it's ugly head already. Mistakes will probably be made as to when, where and how these leased assets are used, but hopefully lessons will be learned as experience is gained.
The issue with a domestically developed large aerial fire fighting force is the whole re-inventing the wheel aspect now and finding tasks for them to perform the other 3/4's of the year. Nth American based assets are far easier relocated to Europe and it's just a flight across the Pacific for them to get to us. The US has this massive aerial fire fighting capacity that isn't needed of course during the northern hemisphere winter, so they have understandably pitched their capabilities to our state governments, or our government(s) have contacted them - either way they are here and have been in use.
Just my amateur musings on this subject of which I admit I am certainly no expert! Don't own it - rent it I say! The question though is will successive governments continue to hire these assets during our summers, or only do so when particularly nasty fire seasons are predicted? Personally, I think it is a small price to pay for peace of mind. Anying can happen of course in the future. I never expected our air force would ever operate C-17's! Budgets are getting much tighter and with huge military programs like the F-35, new sub's etc, there ain't no way I can see a couple of aerial tanker squadrons forming. I can't see the RAAF management being enthusiastic about the idea either - not at all.
Cheers
Adam
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Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by RHB785 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:32 am
G'day Adam. Yes the Be-200 is still in production. The company has just sold 12 more of them. 6 to the Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations and 6 to the Russian Navy with interest being shown from China in the Be-200 and the Be-103 despite the fact that China is building its own turboprop amphibian. The Be-200 is faster and longer ranging than the Chinese aircraft. And one of the engine options is a Rolls Royce engine that would make this aircraft more saleable in the west. The are even reports that it is to be purchased by an American company and leased out to fire fighting authorities. I have yet to confirm these reports and that might be a little difficult in the present political environment. These reports date from this month so are very current. I believe these aircraft would be a boon to Australia with our 20,000 km long coastline and our propensity for savage bush fires. They could supplement the LATS/VLATS in the fire fighting role and be available for the SAR role being able to get to the scene of a marine accident way off shore much quicker than helicopters. And they have much longer range than any helicopter.
As to our being "over there" in the big "sand box" I have to question why we are there. We're spending A$M500 (Be-200s are US$M40 each so for what it's costing us to be in the "big sandbox" for 2 years we could actually have 2 sqns of Be-200s and A$M300 left over) a year to be involved in a war we weren't even invited to and much of our civilian population don't want to anything to do with, but our previous PM badgered Washington until they relented and gave us an invite. To my knowledge there has only been one Australian Government that has actually been invited to an American war since Korea and that was the First Gulf War. To get an invite to all the other wars we've had to badger the Americans to invite us to their party. And what a party they each have been. We should concentrate more of our resources at home on trying to make sure these young Muslim people don't become radicalized and fighting our actual wildfires and providing a fast efficient SAR platform with enough interior space to be able to comfortably rescue the crew of a small to medium ship or even a large one as even these large bulk carriers these days have crews of less than 30 people. The Be-200 could easily pick up the crew of a foundering vessel and provide medical treatment to the injured on the way home.
We were in Afghanistan for 10 years and look at what has been achieved there. Ultimately all war is a waste of life and money. Certainly we should defend ourselves but do we really need to be involved in everybody else's wars. Even the US have said that unless it suits them they won't come and belt the crap out of any enemy who sees fit to attack us. In other words, we're on our own. The confrontation conflict to our northwest in the 1960s was a graphic example of this. When it looked like we might be attacked by Indonesia in '63 we asked for American help. We were told quite bluntly "you lot were clever enough to get yourselves into this mess, you lot can be clever enough to get yourselves out of it. By yourselves." Yet the very next year when his popularity began to flag Menzies badgered the Yanks for an invite to Vietnam and increased conscription and sent those new conscripts to a war which proved a very unpopular thing with both civilians and military officials alike.
As to senior RAAF officers not liking the idea, ultimately they are public servants, highly glorified security guards with expensive toys at their command and as such they do the bidding of the Government of the day whether they like it or not, in other words they do as they're told. Oh, I know that Defence is the most difficult department for any Minister to deal and work with but ultimately if threatened with the sack for gross incompetence or disobedience, even civilian permanent heads of department will do as they're told, whether they like it or not and senior military officers needn't think they're immune from the sack if they don't tow the line. I'm not advocating that any of these people should be sacked for anything but gross incompetence or disobedience but they should be reminded every now and again that it is possible for even them to lose their jobs for not doing as they're told and implementing the policies of the Government of the day, whether they agree with such policies or not.
These are my thoughts on the subject, others are free to disgree with me if they like to. I've lived through the Malayan Conflict, Confrontation, Vietnam and all the other wars we have been involved in since and I really can't see any reason for our involvement in any of those wars. We have in my opinion only been involved in them to bolster the flagging popularity of various PMs of the day and ultimately they've proven very unpopular with the civilian population because we haven't been directly attacked, they have been someone else's war and our "great ally" has made it clear to me at least that unless their interests are directly affected they won't be bothered coming to our aid, we're not important enough to them. And that's come from some very senior US military officers.
Regards,
RHB.
As to our being "over there" in the big "sand box" I have to question why we are there. We're spending A$M500 (Be-200s are US$M40 each so for what it's costing us to be in the "big sandbox" for 2 years we could actually have 2 sqns of Be-200s and A$M300 left over) a year to be involved in a war we weren't even invited to and much of our civilian population don't want to anything to do with, but our previous PM badgered Washington until they relented and gave us an invite. To my knowledge there has only been one Australian Government that has actually been invited to an American war since Korea and that was the First Gulf War. To get an invite to all the other wars we've had to badger the Americans to invite us to their party. And what a party they each have been. We should concentrate more of our resources at home on trying to make sure these young Muslim people don't become radicalized and fighting our actual wildfires and providing a fast efficient SAR platform with enough interior space to be able to comfortably rescue the crew of a small to medium ship or even a large one as even these large bulk carriers these days have crews of less than 30 people. The Be-200 could easily pick up the crew of a foundering vessel and provide medical treatment to the injured on the way home.
We were in Afghanistan for 10 years and look at what has been achieved there. Ultimately all war is a waste of life and money. Certainly we should defend ourselves but do we really need to be involved in everybody else's wars. Even the US have said that unless it suits them they won't come and belt the crap out of any enemy who sees fit to attack us. In other words, we're on our own. The confrontation conflict to our northwest in the 1960s was a graphic example of this. When it looked like we might be attacked by Indonesia in '63 we asked for American help. We were told quite bluntly "you lot were clever enough to get yourselves into this mess, you lot can be clever enough to get yourselves out of it. By yourselves." Yet the very next year when his popularity began to flag Menzies badgered the Yanks for an invite to Vietnam and increased conscription and sent those new conscripts to a war which proved a very unpopular thing with both civilians and military officials alike.
As to senior RAAF officers not liking the idea, ultimately they are public servants, highly glorified security guards with expensive toys at their command and as such they do the bidding of the Government of the day whether they like it or not, in other words they do as they're told. Oh, I know that Defence is the most difficult department for any Minister to deal and work with but ultimately if threatened with the sack for gross incompetence or disobedience, even civilian permanent heads of department will do as they're told, whether they like it or not and senior military officers needn't think they're immune from the sack if they don't tow the line. I'm not advocating that any of these people should be sacked for anything but gross incompetence or disobedience but they should be reminded every now and again that it is possible for even them to lose their jobs for not doing as they're told and implementing the policies of the Government of the day, whether they agree with such policies or not.
These are my thoughts on the subject, others are free to disgree with me if they like to. I've lived through the Malayan Conflict, Confrontation, Vietnam and all the other wars we have been involved in since and I really can't see any reason for our involvement in any of those wars. We have in my opinion only been involved in them to bolster the flagging popularity of various PMs of the day and ultimately they've proven very unpopular with the civilian population because we haven't been directly attacked, they have been someone else's war and our "great ally" has made it clear to me at least that unless their interests are directly affected they won't be bothered coming to our aid, we're not important enough to them. And that's come from some very senior US military officers.
Regards,
RHB.
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Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by Adam the Akrodude » Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:35 am
I'm a great fan of amphibians - always look so cool with that "boat" fuselage. How could anyone lot love the Catalina as a example! Yes the Be-200 does look a very capable aircraft and one any country with a big coast line could use. Australia will never buy Russkie though - rightfully or wrongly it will never happen. Any idea what sort of sea state (wave size) they can land in? Still think civilian commercial operations for aerial fire tankers is the go here now. These US air tanker assets seem readily available, they have the experience, the infrastructure, etc to successfully conduct these operations worldwide. Perhaps there may have been a opportunity for the RAAF to become involved in the past, but it's my guess that being outside of it's core M.O, they'd just not be that keen to take it on as it would mean less money for other programs & operations - there is just a finite amount in the kitty. A "WIF" of a Be-200 in RAAF markings would be pretty cool - up for the challenge?
Massive thread drift alert - WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP!
Well, what's going on over in the giant sandpit I think is a extension of the Holy War - we've got this mess for a very long time to come. The US administration totally blew it by pulling out of Iraq too soon leaving a vacuum to develop and massively underestimating the growth of ISIS. Obama blew it big time and now we're all paying for it. The UN appears pretty useless but of interest I saw a small headline that "Blue Helmets" will protect historic sites - I'm guessing in Iraq first. Yes and the number 1 question is should have the US "Coalition" gone into Iraq in the first place? Well, hindsight is crystal clear but I bet a lot of world leaders perhaps wish not now! Easy to win the war, but winning the peace appears very elusive. At least the US has decided to remain in Afghanistan for the time being - appear to be learning from their mistakes? Will Afghanistan ever be sorted - doubt it too.
Disagree regarding Australian involvement in the Malayan emergency and "Confrontation" with Indonesia particularly in East Malaysia (Sarawak, Saba). Something had to be done regarding the Chinese communist uprising in Malaya and this was successfully carried out - almost textbook handling of a insurgent uprising. Sure there may have been mistakes and errors made, but this uprising was squashed. Indonesian incursions into parts of Borneo not part of Indonesia had to be stopped. Sukarno had to be taught a lesson - he was getting a bit too big for his shoe size! I once had a boss who in his early career was a "stoker" in the navy on DDG's (he worked done in the engine room and on the boiler/turbine). Anyhoo, he recalled many many times their vessel steaming right over the top of small Indonesian gun running boats in the Malacca Strait. Indonesia was sending arms to the Malayan communists at the time. Any small boat that refused to stop got rammed and was sunk. Bet that didn't make the 6:30PM news at the time!
Vietnam, well another bloody mess and once again hindsight is crystal clear. US fearful of the "Domino Effect". I blame the French for that stinking mess of that 30 year war. From what I've read, Ol' Ho was a nationalist first, communist second. He admired USA and had some schooling there. He worked with US intelligence during WW2 and was lead to believe that the US would support Vietnam's wish to become independent. After WW2, De Gaulle heavily lobbied Churchill to support France's wish to hold onto Vietnam. Churchill lobbied Truman and France got back Vietnam - the rest is very sad history. USA has massively naïve and just never understood the Vietnamese people and how the country ticked. Training all those militia who eventually turned over to the Viet Cong - opp's! The massive failure of "strategic hamlets" - opp's! Supporting the very corrupt Southern leaders - opp's! Using B-52's to bomb the Trail making matchsticks and killing monkeys - opp's. Never letting the military have a free hand (particularly the USAF during Rolling Thunder) and micro-managing from Washington (the Johnson/McNamara fiasco) - opp's! It was endless stuff up after stuff up. Many of the same mistakes were repeated post Iraq invasion in 2003 - learnt how to win the war quickly but massive failure to keep the peace. There is a great movie called "The Quiet American" which to me very much sums up how the Americans operated in S.E.Asia in the 60's. It was a book by Graham Green I think. Lot's of "dash and cash" by the Americans without ever truly understanding the issues and core problems. How many billions has been spent on Afghanistan and Iraq and what are the outcomes?
Vietnam was a black hole that USA was sucked into - just as Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria now is. The "terrorism" factor makes this current conflict a 1000 times more complex. It's a mess that will be around as my kids become adults I think - who knows maybe even their kids. I have no faith in any quick solutions or resolutions over there. I agree with limited involvement over there to attempt to sort out this mess (SAS plus the RAAF involvement), as the bad guys over there are truly evil. A big effort needs to go into stopping young people being caught up in this evilness here now. Something desperately needs to be done to break down cultural and religious barriers.
It will be fascinating to see what develops with Russian intervention in Syria - the Russkies do not muck around! Will it make things worse or better over there - hmmm? The world now knows there is something much worse than Assad's regime. It's a very interesting development and I'm hoping the Russkies, USA + NATO - not forgetting Australia's small involvement all can work together to resolve this giant mess! There need to be peace keepers in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan. When will the UN grow some actual balls???????
Great discussion Ross! Kind of discussion where you need a couple of beers and tasty snacks whilst trying to resolve the problems of this planet!
Cheers
Adam
Massive thread drift alert - WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP!
Well, what's going on over in the giant sandpit I think is a extension of the Holy War - we've got this mess for a very long time to come. The US administration totally blew it by pulling out of Iraq too soon leaving a vacuum to develop and massively underestimating the growth of ISIS. Obama blew it big time and now we're all paying for it. The UN appears pretty useless but of interest I saw a small headline that "Blue Helmets" will protect historic sites - I'm guessing in Iraq first. Yes and the number 1 question is should have the US "Coalition" gone into Iraq in the first place? Well, hindsight is crystal clear but I bet a lot of world leaders perhaps wish not now! Easy to win the war, but winning the peace appears very elusive. At least the US has decided to remain in Afghanistan for the time being - appear to be learning from their mistakes? Will Afghanistan ever be sorted - doubt it too.
Disagree regarding Australian involvement in the Malayan emergency and "Confrontation" with Indonesia particularly in East Malaysia (Sarawak, Saba). Something had to be done regarding the Chinese communist uprising in Malaya and this was successfully carried out - almost textbook handling of a insurgent uprising. Sure there may have been mistakes and errors made, but this uprising was squashed. Indonesian incursions into parts of Borneo not part of Indonesia had to be stopped. Sukarno had to be taught a lesson - he was getting a bit too big for his shoe size! I once had a boss who in his early career was a "stoker" in the navy on DDG's (he worked done in the engine room and on the boiler/turbine). Anyhoo, he recalled many many times their vessel steaming right over the top of small Indonesian gun running boats in the Malacca Strait. Indonesia was sending arms to the Malayan communists at the time. Any small boat that refused to stop got rammed and was sunk. Bet that didn't make the 6:30PM news at the time!
Vietnam, well another bloody mess and once again hindsight is crystal clear. US fearful of the "Domino Effect". I blame the French for that stinking mess of that 30 year war. From what I've read, Ol' Ho was a nationalist first, communist second. He admired USA and had some schooling there. He worked with US intelligence during WW2 and was lead to believe that the US would support Vietnam's wish to become independent. After WW2, De Gaulle heavily lobbied Churchill to support France's wish to hold onto Vietnam. Churchill lobbied Truman and France got back Vietnam - the rest is very sad history. USA has massively naïve and just never understood the Vietnamese people and how the country ticked. Training all those militia who eventually turned over to the Viet Cong - opp's! The massive failure of "strategic hamlets" - opp's! Supporting the very corrupt Southern leaders - opp's! Using B-52's to bomb the Trail making matchsticks and killing monkeys - opp's. Never letting the military have a free hand (particularly the USAF during Rolling Thunder) and micro-managing from Washington (the Johnson/McNamara fiasco) - opp's! It was endless stuff up after stuff up. Many of the same mistakes were repeated post Iraq invasion in 2003 - learnt how to win the war quickly but massive failure to keep the peace. There is a great movie called "The Quiet American" which to me very much sums up how the Americans operated in S.E.Asia in the 60's. It was a book by Graham Green I think. Lot's of "dash and cash" by the Americans without ever truly understanding the issues and core problems. How many billions has been spent on Afghanistan and Iraq and what are the outcomes?
Vietnam was a black hole that USA was sucked into - just as Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria now is. The "terrorism" factor makes this current conflict a 1000 times more complex. It's a mess that will be around as my kids become adults I think - who knows maybe even their kids. I have no faith in any quick solutions or resolutions over there. I agree with limited involvement over there to attempt to sort out this mess (SAS plus the RAAF involvement), as the bad guys over there are truly evil. A big effort needs to go into stopping young people being caught up in this evilness here now. Something desperately needs to be done to break down cultural and religious barriers.
It will be fascinating to see what develops with Russian intervention in Syria - the Russkies do not muck around! Will it make things worse or better over there - hmmm? The world now knows there is something much worse than Assad's regime. It's a very interesting development and I'm hoping the Russkies, USA + NATO - not forgetting Australia's small involvement all can work together to resolve this giant mess! There need to be peace keepers in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan. When will the UN grow some actual balls???????
Great discussion Ross! Kind of discussion where you need a couple of beers and tasty snacks whilst trying to resolve the problems of this planet!
Cheers
Adam
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Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by RHB785 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:06 am
G'day Adam. Yes a good discussion to be sure, but a major thread drift on my part I'm afraid. I'll be coming down to Melbourne late November-early December for a week or so. i've bought some brand spanking new Adventra wheels and tyres from the Tyrepower in Sale (saw them on ebay for less than 1/6 of their usual price. He'd ordered them for a customer who never returned. In fact he had two sets, the set I've bought and another for another customer who also never returned for them so if anyone knows someone with a 6 cylinder Adventra who needs a new set of wheels and tyres theres a set of brand new wheels and tyres going for $800.) Becasue of the condition of my wheels at the moment I don't want to go too fast on them so I'll be going down the Great Ocean Road from the Royal National Park to Bermagui to see my cousin and her husband there and then on to Sale possibly the next day. She also has a son and his wife who live in Melbourne and it's been about 18 years since I last saw them so perhaps we should get together and have a few drinks (make mine lemonades) and some nibblies and have a discussion onthese things. Perhaps tor might like to join us and anyone else that wants to have a social afternoon or night out. What do you guys think? Is there a model show of competition on in Melbourne around that time? I'd also like to visit some of the model shops in Melbourne again. The last time I was down there damo took me to the Moonee Ponds model shop and I spent quite a bit of money there. Anyway I hope we can meet and have some fun solving the worlds problems when I get down there.
Regards,
RHB.
Regards,
RHB.
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Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by Adam the Akrodude » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:36 pm
Definitely let us know when you are down our neck of the woods. We could possibly organise a informal A/CAM meeting!
The crap will flow thick and fast!
The crap will flow thick and fast!
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Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by RHB785 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:06 pm
Amen brother. I'll certainly let you fellas know when I'll be down that way again. An informal A/CAM meeting sounds like a good idea.
Regards,
RHB.
Regards,
RHB.
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Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by tor lives » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:08 pm
Seems Australian Aviation has jumped on my band wagon
Hear Hear AA....I couldn't have said it better myself
TOR
Hear Hear AA....I couldn't have said it better myself
TOR
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Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by Adam the Akrodude » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:08 pm
Looks like some weekend reading material!
- Adam the Akrodude
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Re: I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs
by RayS » Fri May 06, 2016 8:42 am
And the US does it again with a bigger VLAT
[img=http://www.airliners.net/photo/Global-SuperTanker-Services/Boeing-747-446(BCF)/2818348/L/&sid=8db7ead8b04e2c0469cfa50e4743922e]N744ST[/img]
An ex Evergreen and JAL B747-400
So when will the first A380 be retired from pax service and converteted to a VLAT?
[img=http://www.airliners.net/photo/Global-SuperTanker-Services/Boeing-747-446(BCF)/2818348/L/&sid=8db7ead8b04e2c0469cfa50e4743922e]N744ST[/img]
An ex Evergreen and JAL B747-400
So when will the first A380 be retired from pax service and converteted to a VLAT?
Ray
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