I case ya don't know....I LOVE VLATs

[RHB785]

Too true Ray and we'll never be able to rid ourselves of the firebugs amongst us regardless of what custodial sentences we might impose now and in the future. These people just don't get it and quite a few of them are members of our Rural (bushies) or Metropolitan (townies) Fire organizations. The death and suffering they inflict on other innocent members of society is indeed criminal but what, in my humble opinion, is even more criminal is that governments and political parties of all colours have for more decades than I care to remember, ignored this problem. I drove down to the Avalon Airshow just after the Black Saturday fires and I was stunned at the area those fires burned in northern Victoria. As far as the eye could see in every direction on both sides of the Hume Highway the ground was just black and looked barren. I know of course that the land needs fire to regenerate but not to that huge extent and it needs to be controlled.

Just as soldiers on the ground can get pinned down by enemy fire so our hard working firies can also. And that's where aerial support and control comes in. Firies on the ground can do a certain amount of that control but if there's a wind change they can very quickly find themselves in a tight spot perhaps in an area where's there's only one track in and out of the area. Without aerial support they're a goner. With it they have a good chance of surviving to fight another fire another day. Sadly we'll always have arsonists amongst us no matter what we do to combat them so we need the most effective means of controlling their evil that we can have and that's airborne support of our wonderful troops on the ground, ie our overworked underpaid firies, both bushies and townies, although I acknowledge that aerial support will probably be more effective in rural areas than urban ones and the bushies don't get paid at all from what I understand, they do it out of the goodness of their hearts and to support and protect their local communities.

Regards,
RHB.

[tor lives]

Ross,
For a better understanding of what I was contending with just a few short years ago.....have a read through this thread in it's entirety.
http://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/forum/ ... hilit=VLAT
Now that it has come to pass that VLATs/LATs are routinely integrated into the Australian fire-fighting environment, (finally....thank God!!!), I note that the "stead-fast" and "rock-solid" arguments of my most ardent "expert" critics have quietly faded away. I know that I shouldn't get any satisfaction out of knowing that, but every time I have seen News footage of DC-10, C-130, or BAe-146 Large Air Tankers being locally deployed and effectively utilised......I get immense satisfaction. I wonder if my critics from the above thread, (who apparently know far more than me....just ask them ), can say the same.
To Ken, David, Warren, and Alfred..... I say game, set, and match fellas
http://australianaviation.com.au/wp-con ... SADLER.jpg
http://australianaviation.com.au/wp-con ... Broad.jpeg
TOR

[RHB785]

Hi Ray. I haven't read the entire thread yet but I will. Just from what I've read so far, (up to page 4) I wonder what planet are these guys are living on? Fire fronts that only move at 22 km/h? Yeah right. Back in the early 70s I almost got caught in a one road in and out area that was on fire. I was able to outrun the fire in my car; only just. I had to drive at 80 mph or 130km/h to do it and I reckon I was only outrunning the fire by about 5 mph or so, certainly not by 20 mph.

Have these guys ever read that a eucalyptus (gum tree) crown fire can move at Mach 1? This is because of the exploding eucalyptus oil in the leaves of the trees and has absolutley nothing to do with windspeed. I have a cousin who still lives in Canberra and her younger sister who now lives in Bermagui and at the height of the 2003 fires Judy who lives in Kingston said she could here the fires coming many miles away from the Brindabellas with what sounded like jet fighters breaking Mach 1. At that time Lee and her husband also lived in Canberra. My mother and I went down there to visit in March and we were shocked at the devestation we saw there as Tom and Lee drove us around the city. Driving into Canberra from Goulbourn was much like driving down the Hume to Melbourne 6 years later. The criticism of you that I've read so far is pretty much the same as I've experienced over the last 40 years.

Regards,RHB.

[tor lives]

Hi Ross,
I never ceased to be amazed by the fundamentally illogical and just plain blind and silly anti VLAT/LAT arguments and attitudes demonstrated in that thread, (and others like it that were subsequently deleted), despite the obvious intelligence of some of those involved with that debate, (one of which was/is a senior RAAF Officer ) .
The core anti VLAT/LAT group for some reason consistently and continuously ignored and side-stepped the basic facts of my argument, so I constantly reminded them of those facts . In all their debate, links, and counter-points they never actual did address the basic issues that were put to them at that time, (and never has since). As quoted from that thread those issues were:
A/ Significant fleets of these aircraft continue to be maintained and operated by all other major fire-prone countries including: Canada, USA, Russia, France, Turkey, Greece, Spain, Croatia, Serbia etc, etc,. If they were not effective they would simply not be there, especially in these harsh economic times.
B/ We don't precisely know how effective and useful these aircraft would be for Australian conditions because, frankly, we have never operationally deployed them... and until we do, all the theory is ultimately just speculative.
C/Australia has the worst bush/wild fire fatality rates of any major fire-prone country on earth...we are also the only ones who do not routinely deploy these very capable aircraft. Could that just be coincidence do you think???
D/ While there maybe "experts" who doubt the relevance of these aircraft for local use, there are others who actively advocate there use.
E/ 50 years of effective use of these aircraft all around the world cannot/should not be simply ignored...they have the runs on the board.

At any rate, the above debate is now somewhat academic and superseded because the VLATs/LATS are now here , thus validating my points at the time, and of course rendering any past arguments against them irrelevant.
And one final point.....do you think I feel bad about those expert "anti VLAT/LAT for Australia" critics and opponents of mine being proven so clearly wrong in this debate, by virtue of VLATs/LATs now being deployed here???? what do you think????
TOR

[RHB785]

Yes Ray they are. But we need more of them and we need to have our own. That's also been my point for the last 40 odd years too. At least we're now on the right path towards solving what has been a real issue for decades. Someone in that thread mentioned the models of these aircraft that have been converted from other kits. When I was at Richmond both times I had a mate who was an excellent modeller. He was a very quiet framie who didn't go out much but he was a prodigious modeller. He built quite a few models of the early tankers like the Grumman Avengers and Lockheed Neptune conversions as well as others like Lockheed Venturas and Harpoons (the old Rareplanes kit IIRC) and Trackers. He used to build the interiors down to a tee, and all this in 1/72 scale. He was a kiwi by birth and had a lot of models of RNZAF aircraft in his collection. He once converted the old Airfix Hudson to a Lodestar and scratch built the cockpit down to the last detail but he found that when he painted it all that beautiful interior detail became pretty much invisible when he painted the plated over cockpit. His models however were a joy to behold, not a paint run anywhere and every detail in its place. He told me once that he enjoyed building models of fire fighting aircraft becasue of the great work they do. Sadly I lost touch with him when he got out of the RAAF.

Regards,
RHB.

[tor lives]

Yes Ray they are. But we need more of them and we need to have our own. That's also been my point for the last 40 odd years too. At least we're now on the right path towards solving what has been a real issue for decades. ,
RHB.

Absolutely agree on every point Ross. If I had my way Australia would have an organic and permanent VLAT/LAT fire-fighting "air force" that rivalled in size those in the USA and Canada. It just makes sense on so many levels. I can hear my critics shouting "oh the cost, the cost", but have a look at what it has cost us up to now, (in terms of life and property loss), by not having them.
Further to that, the cost of purchase, maintenance, and deployment of an Australian-owned fleet of VLATs/LATS could be substantially subsidized by the leasing of this fleet to northern hemisphere fire-prone countries for their fire seasons, which happens to be the opposite to ours, (another point conveniently overlooked by my critics of the past) .....it just makes sense people .
TOR

[Cap'n Wannabe]

Absolutely agree on every point Ross. If I had my way Australia would have an organic and permanent VLAT/LAT fire-fighting "air force" that rivalled in size those in the USA and Canada. It just makes sense on so many levels. I can hear my critics shouting "oh the cost, the cost", but have a look at what it has cost us up to now, (in terms of life and property loss), by not having them.
Further to that, the cost of purchase, maintenance, and deployment of an Australian-owned fleet of VLATs/LATS could be substantially subsidized by the leasing of this fleet to northern hemisphere fire-prone countries for their fire seasons, which happens to be the opposite to ours, (another point conveniently overlooked by my critics of the past) .....it just makes sense people .
TOR

Lovely idea Ray.......but CASA!!

[RHB785]

Hang CASA damo. You just form or reform another RAAF Sqn or two, say No 12 and/or 13 Sqn to operate our MATS/LATS/VLATS then CASA has absolutely nothing to do with it. Anyway, isn't CASA allowing the LATS/VLATS to operate here temporarily and years ago they allowed AN-12s to operate here temporarily transporting race horses to and from New Zealand, Hong Long and Singapore but if they're going to be a bunch of problematic stick-in-the-muds then you simply bypass them by doing what I've suggested above and have been suggesting for the last 40 odd years. Or are the LATS/VLATS operating under the auspices of the RAAF under military flight rules at the moment anyway?

Regards,
RHB.

[RHB785]

Just another idea I've had regarding the operation of these aircraft. First a bit of background to my thoughts. On Christmas Eve 1979 I went from Williamtown down to the Bilpin fires as a RAAF volunteer fire fighter. It was a wasted trip as the RFS refused to allow us within 300 m of even a backburn let alone a real fire, even though earlier in the day it was them that were screaming for more manpower, so at 2300 the young OIC of the detachment called Richmond and got the bus back up to take us back to Richmond. I can't print his words here so I won't. Let's just say they were none too complimentary of the RFS.

However while we were up there we saw a very close near miss between 2 helicopters, one a leased RFS bird and the other a press chopper. They literally came within metres of each others' rotors. As that area at that altitude is always under Richmond military control and was that afternoon because of the fires despite it being Christmas Eve the press helicopter pilot had his commercial licence suspended for long enough to make it hurt him financially for blatantly disobeying instructions not to enter the control zone. Another such incursion was at the 1991 Schofields Air Show when a Decathlon crashed and the pilot was sadly killed. Within a couple of minutes one of those pariahs was in the air and wanting a clearance into the temporary primary control zone to take video of the crash site. The controllers refused the request and told him to remain no closer than 5 miles away. So what does he do, he blatantly disobeyed the instructions and came in to get a closer look at the crash site because of "freedom of the press" and all that guff. The fact that the dead pilot's family were all in attendance made absolutely no difference to this mob, they "had the right" and that was more important than any family members' feelings at the time. Yeah, right it was.

So, back to the ideas at hand. You buy MATS/LATS/VLATS and embed them in the RAAF, then CASA has no control whatsoever over them and when there is a fire on the ground you simply make that area a Temporary Military Restricetd Zone due Low Jet Route and issue NOTAMS to all pilots not involved in the operations in that area. If anyone deliberately disobeys the NOTAM you simply cancel their licence for 5 years for a first offence, 10 for a second etc. If it's an accidental incursion (and these do happen from time to time) and the pilot is able to prove it was then the pilot's licence is suspended for 3 to 6 months depending how deep the incursion is and he/she also gets a slap on the wrist from CASA. This way the RAAF has total control over the area for the duration of the fire ground operations but CASA officialdom can still feel they have something to say and do with it.

Regards,
RHB.

[tor lives]

And here is some good news.....the 747 Supertanker VLAT is back in the game.
IN YOUR FACE VLAT nay-sayers
http://flightclub.jalopnik.com/evergree ... 1723914413
Hopefully, in addition to the DC-10s, we will see the 747 VLATs in Australia in the coming years......suck on that Wedgie!!!!!
TOR
PS: Some "kick arse" VLAT DC-10 footage
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/watchi ... 1634763423