In case anyone is interested

[Adam the Akrodude]

I agree with ya regarding the 787 but that's about as far as I go. BTW I'm not anti F35 (though it does look pathetic IMHO). What I am anti about is spending a shitload on something that's no where near even proving itself in the real world. As for the "senior government decision makers, senior military and the users themselves" being excited about it, who cares. We both know it doesn't mean a pinch of dog crap what they think cos they are so far removed from the REAL world it ain't funny. There's a handful of pilots that fly these things in testing and that's about it so far. And all of these people have to say it's awesome because that's the government/company line that must be towed. Lets just hope that the real users are happy, Because after all, they're the ones that really matter. Not some senior RAAF/USAF/USN officer/government knob making some apparenty important defence decisions and spending our tax dollars in the process. Anyways. I'd better go and play with my so last century F-4 model

Ah this is a good cracking debate!

How do you propose the 35 prove itself - go to war with someone? How is any new aeroplane supposed to "prove" itself prior to actual combat? It's still going through its development and opening up the flight and weapons envelope further every day - it's a very complex aeroplane.

Disagree on those senior decision makers being so far removed and thus irrelevant. Some very clever people up in senior positions in many western governments and their associated militaries involved with the F-35. What - they're all idiots, the Brit's, Japanese, Israelis, Dutch, etc, etc, etc, etc?

Wrong on only a handful of pilots flying the 35 - Back in March there were 100 pilots qualified to fly the 35 at Eglin AFB in USA. Read somewhere over 150 qualified now - think in Aust Aviation. The first US Marine squadron now has it's full complement of 35's. There is plenty of info in the public sector of "real" users discussing the F-35 - there if you want to read it. Haven't read about any "users" shit bagging the 35 yet - all seem immensely happy - more like blown away by it's capability.

OK - I do get you're not a fan, no worries at all, but I think you're not being objective.

[hrtpaul]

I don't have to be objective anyones eyes except my own mate. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm not being objective. I love how the good old F-111 keeps getting compared with this program It'll prove itself when it eventually gets into squadron service and the pilots, engineers etc are happy with it (hopefully). And I mean in a real, combat ready squadron. So you say the real user have rave reviews yeah? Gee there's a surprise. Didn't see that coming. You can't honestly believe that the average everyday pilot that flys 1 of these things is gonna say anything but it's great. I have enough working knowledge of the military to know even if it was a piece of shit, they'd not be allowed to say anything but, it's amazing as too many people have way too much money invested in the program. Remember I don't care what the dudes further up the food chain think because they don't have to use it day in day out and they are, in my opinion, irrelevant. Remember these same dudes thought the Sea Sprite was a good idea. That was money well spent wasn't it Just because MANY governments say somethings a good idea doesn't necessarily make it so. Whether something's a good idea or not depends on which side of the fence you sit. Oh and in the grand scheme 150 pilots IS a handful when you think about it. As for reading anymore about it than I already have, I can't see it happening. There's so much for and against and quite frankly it bores the shit outta me. As much as a Beechcraft Baron and that's sayin something. Besides there's way more exciting stuff to look at IMHO. Anyways mate. I'm not out to change anyone's opinion and for the moment, mine won't be changing anytime soon. End of thought.

[oz rb fan]

i'm no F35 fanboy(no adam i'm not haveing a go)....and would be happy if the raaf went with a supper bugs(rhino just doesnt work with me!!!) and typhoon mix(it would cost a whole lot less)but even these arent proven in combat...oh in the case of the f111-c....it was never proven in combat...THANK GOD....still the best money ever spent in defense in this country.

the reason alot of people compare the f35 to the f111 is purely the controversy of both projects....ours were put back 4 years(and we had stunning F4's to make up for them whilst we waited......and we should have kept them...imagine...mirage's for interception.....phantom's as a long range fighter........pigs for all the other stuff!!!!!!)
the f111 project from both our side and the us was a major stuff up in so many ways(pigs on carriers...yup that was gonna work!!!)...but the final product was without peers....still in many ways the finest low level bomber there is!!!!
whether the F35 reaches that level still remains to be seen(i have my doubts) but it needs to be a game changer as far as mud movers go .

[tor lives]

Interesting reading with some very differing views, it is however amazing how this thread evolved to this point???
The difference between this site and others is that, as site owner, I absolutely applaud and advocate a wonderfully rich and diverse thread drift and good discussion without any barriers or restrictions. This is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I first conceived this site. Keep up the interesting discussions lads, it brings much value to our site
You have paid for the right to have your say and express your respective views and opinions.
TOR
PS: I just wish the F-35 looked as "kick arse" and purposeful as an F-14, F-111, F-22, or even (yes Paul ), an F-4, (but the gun really is so last century )

[Tony P]

So was 20 squid a good price for the Zivko?

[Adam the Akrodude]

I don't have to be objective anyones eyes except my own mate. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm not being objective. I love how the good old F-111 keeps getting compared with this program It'll prove itself when it eventually gets into squadron service and the pilots, engineers etc are happy with it (hopefully). And I mean in a real, combat ready squadron. So you say the real user have rave reviews yeah? Gee there's a surprise. Didn't see that coming. You can't honestly believe that the average everyday pilot that flys 1 of these things is gonna say anything but it's great. I have enough working knowledge of the military to know even if it was a piece of shit, they'd not be allowed to say anything but, it's amazing as too many people have way too much money invested in the program. Remember I don't care what the dudes further up the food chain think because they don't have to use it day in day out and they are, in my opinion, irrelevant. Remember these same dudes thought the Sea Sprite was a good idea. That was money well spent wasn't it Just because MANY governments say somethings a good idea doesn't necessarily make it so. Whether something's a good idea or not depends on which side of the fence you sit. Oh and in the grand scheme 150 pilots IS a handful when you think about it. As for reading anymore about it than I already have, I can't see it happening. There's so much for and against and quite frankly it bores the shit outta me. As much as a Beechcraft Baron and that's saying something. Besides there's way more exciting stuff to look at IMHO. Anyways mate. I'm not out to change anyone's opinion and for the moment, mine won't be changing anytime soon. End of thought.

I'm not wanting or asking you to agree - just put some evidence forward to support your position. F-35 has entered squadron service. There's a lot of info out there showing what a amazing piece of technology the F-35 is - I've not come across any actual evidence outside of complete garbage from the likes of Peter Goon and Carlo Copp (pretty well regarded as jokes in the industry) and some garbage by one of the old "Fighter Mafia" shanghai'd out of his retirement village in Florida by the Four-Corners "journalist" (a term I use very loosely here!). Stupid biased garbage like comparing a unloaded F-16's performance to a F-35. Yeah, like a unloaded F-16 is of any use - perhaps at a airshow!
150+ pilots and well over 1000 maintainers is a handful?? There are only 150 F-22 pilots in the world. Eventually there will be 2000-3000+ F-35 pilots, so human nature being what it is, I'm guessing you're thinking one will eventually spill his guts and reveal the "truth" behind the "greatest military aircraft conspiracy" of all time huh?
Using the Sea Sprite fiasco as a example I don't think is relevant in this case. Sea Sprite was an old airframe to be mated with new engines and new gizmo's inside. Karman probably bit off more than they could chew and the RAN kept moving the goal posts - just a rotten program all up - poorly managed. So how does it compare to F-35 program?
OK - totally get you don't like the F-35 and are bored with the thing - fine, no worries at all. Personally I do not believe it is a P.O.S at all, but a amazing weapon system - one this country will be proud to have.

Answer me this - if the F-35 is garbage, why is it now that our government is now investigating using the F-35 "Bee" on the LHD's - what, to waste more taxpayer money? Why have so many countries signed up to purchase the F-35? Not too many are purchasing the Typhoon or Rafale.



Very much looking forward to hearing the "Sound of Freedom" of that P&W F135!

[hrtpaul]

Geez It's my opinion bud. I don't have show any evidence, justify it or prove it to anyone mate. You can post all the stuff about it ya like but to me, my opinion still stands. Take it or leave it, that's just how it is. I'm now gonna go look at pics of Barons

[Adam the Akrodude]

i'm no F35 fanboy(no adam i'm not haveing a go)....and would be happy if the raaf went with a supper bugs(rhino just doesnt work with me!!!) and typhoon mix(it would cost a whole lot less)but even these arent proven in combat...oh in the case of the f111-c....it was never proven in combat...THANK GOD....still the best money ever spent in defense in this country.

the reason alot of people compare the f35 to the f111 is purely the controversy of both projects....ours were put back 4 years(and we had stunning F4's to make up for them whilst we waited......and we should have kept them...imagine...mirage's for interception.....phantom's as a long range fighter........pigs for all the other stuff!!!!!!)
the f111 project from both our side and the us was a major stuff up in so many ways(pigs on carriers...yup that was gonna work!!!)...but the final product was without peers....still in many ways the finest low level bomber there is!!!!
whether the F35 reaches that level still remains to be seen(i have my doubts) but it needs to be a game changer as far as mud movers go .

Hey Rob

RAAF is following what the USN is doing - I think a very smart move. The F-18F/G purchase is a excellent stepping stone to the F-35 - use of AESA radar and the big step into jamming a/c - keep in mind that the F-35 does it's own jamming. How would purchasing the Typhoon save money? The RAAF has such a excellent relationship with the USN and USAF. The Typhoon is significantly more expensive than the F-35 and a lot less capable - hence very few countries are buying them - like Saudi Arabia who is just swapping oil for them - and would not be allowed to get the F-35 in any case (Israel no doubt lobbied hard for this). Typhoon and Rafale are Gen 4+ at best and very limited when compared to the F-35 and all it will do.

Our 111's of course not combat proven, yet plenty of other 111's were - over Nth Vietnam, Libya and Iraq. The 111"C" was basically a "A" model with longer SAC wings and heavier gear (prior to the later digital upgrade). The RAAF 111's made quite a few deployments to Red Flag (met one RAAF 111 driver who almost flew his aeroplane into a mountain at Red Flag!) yet could not be deployed for conflicts like GW1 and 2. GW1 probably mainly political and I've heard number of available crews/currency was an issue - not a full squadron could be deployed. GW2 - our 111's just not fitted with compatible EW gear (told this by a RAAF pilot), whereas the F-18's were. Our RF-111C's did of course fly over East Timor on recon flights from Sept-Dec 1999.
No way the RAAF could have fielded Mirage, F-4's and F-111's together - impossible at the time. Think about the manning, maintenance, spares, weapons, etc. The RAAF has always had manning/currency issues - just keeping enough fighter pilots and their currency up. This will be an issue when F-35's start arriving enmasse I'm guessing! Great time for young people considering a career in the RAAF - oh to be 20 again

[Adam the Akrodude]

All good Paul - not trying to change your opinion and you can of course post what you like. I guess I'm intrigued as to why you're so anti F-35 (outside of it's looks). I had my doubts and then set out to learn what I can and became a believer. Some may think I've been "brainwashed" by LM propaganda or have LM goons standing over me as I type this! Matters not in any case for we civvie model builders. I'm at least happy some of my tax dollars are going towards F-35's for this country

[tor lives]

So was 20 squid a good price for the Zivko?

Yeah.....that's not a bad price at all given how few of these kits were produced. Indeed I thought it would go for a lot more.
TOR