Blackhawks gone from TSV

[tor lives]

I hope he bans your arse Ray

Nothing that hasn't already been done before
And if I get banned from this site then hey, I'll just start my own site, (hang on, haven't I been down this road before )
TOR

[Tony P]

I just can't fathom how it could be considered that WW1 was a draw, given the money Germany had to pay back, the loss of territory, the breaking apart of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the severe limitations imposed on it's armed forces.

Didn't stop them though.

That's not the point. Guess you could say that the Germans were poor LOOSERS!

I am happy to stand corrected if you can show me an official document that states Germany lost WW1.

[tor lives]

As pointed out by Adam, Treaty of Versailles pretty much sealed the deal as to who won and lost WW1, and it was an "official document".
To quote Wikipedia...."ending the war in victory for the allies". That sure sounds like the Germans lost to me!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I
I have gotta be honest here....until this thread, I have never known anyone who has denied that Germany lost WW1
TOR

[Tony P]

The Versailles treaty only blamed Germany for starting the war.

[tor lives]

The Versailles treaty only blamed Germany for starting the war.

By virtue of the fact that Germany was a signatory to the Versailles treaty, and consequently agreeing to abide by it's conditions suggests that even Germany recognised it had indeed lost the war.
This treaty effectively amounted to being a formal mechanism of surrender for Germany, and was universally viewed as such, (this is what so pissed off our old mate Adolf).
TOR

[Adam the Akrodude]

The Versailles treaty only blamed Germany for starting the war.

Don't agree. Germany signed accepting their responsibility for starting the war, accepting the occupation of the Rhineland by the Allies, accepting the breakup of it's empire, accepting Austria, Poland and Hungary becoming separate countries, accepting loss of overseas territories, accepting loss of some coal mines, accepting the scrapping of it's air force and navy and having a very small army, accepting the huge reparations (Billions), which was as it turned out impossible to pay back given the economic collapse to come (irrelevant that Germany didn't pay this money back in the debate - Germany did sign off to do this though). This debate is about who lost, not what happened later. Germany was starving at the end of the war, not able to supply it's army with enough food.

How does all this equate to a draw? Please provide any evidence at all that supports your claim that WW1 was a draw.

[Tony P]

Yeah they paid the debt off in 2010.
How can you not agree? What does Article 231 state? Please show me where it states Germany lost? As I've mentioned, happy to stand corrected.
It also didn't help that sections of the army and Navy revolted and the old Kaiser doing a runner.

[tor lives]

The Germans accepted defeat, they surrendered by virtue of signing the treaty.
Surrendering means losing.....and that's what they did Tony.
How much clearer can it be than that????
What more evidence do you need than that????
As mentioned....I have never heard of ANYBODY suggesting that WW1 was a "draw" before this thread.
Quiet frankly, I am astonished!!!
TOR
PS: I note that Brad has quietly (and wisely) backed away from his position in this discussion

[Adam the Akrodude]

Yeah they paid the debt off in 2010.
How can you not agree? What does Article 231 state? Please show me where it states Germany lost? As I've mentioned, happy to stand corrected.
It also didn't help that sections of the army and Navy revolted and the old Kaiser doing a runner.

Is it a draw in Chess when the King falls over? Did Germany think it was a draw when it accepted the conditions of the Treaty? Bet your average German at the time was able to appreciate that Germany
had zero chance of winning the war. Had one sore looser with a small moustache also been able to accept the result, 50+ million people would not have died 26 years later.

[Tony P]

Proof dudes. Gas bagging doesn't prove anything. I'll end it here.