Redbull at it again

[Graeme H]

Sorry Adam, but I cant see a distinction between aerobatics, and what you call circus flying, to me they are one and the same. I think you are trying to make too big a distinction between the two, where one doesn't exist.

All aeros are inherently risky to a degree, your recovery from unusual attitudes with the altimeter unwinding was probably only safe becasue your risk assesment said have plenty of altitude before trying it, so asses the risk and put in controls, probably less so with this, but not a circus stunt in my opinion, just a bit of wow for an Advert. Is this the most risky Ad ever made, don't think so, seem to remember one with wing chutes, going through a rock archway in China.

That they did a very good risk assesment is clear, same as any aerobatic pilot does, both go through the routine before they fly, those that don't are history, it's mostly the unplanned events that come unstuck, I see no more risk in this than the famous barrell roll by the Boeing Dash 80 over the power boat races at Seattle, with a crowd of 100k below, Tex Johnson did that as an unplanned manouvere, probably more risk, but as we know a good barrell roll is not that stressful, Joe Public probably thinks otherwise though, certainly had the wow factor.

[Adam the Akrodude]

Hi Leigh

Yay, someone who gets it! Some of my happiest moments on this planet, moments where I have shouted with pure joy have been in the cockpit of a little aerobatic machine. I've met RAAF fast jet pilots who would rather fly their little akro mounts than what they do in their day job. Still, I would have happily cut my left arm off to say the same thing mind you!

I think (but could be wrong) that the Suk pilot at the Bicentennial was Victor Smolin. He had been a Unlimited aerobatic competition pilot for USSR back in the 80's - a time when the USSR was winning all the time. I think he worked for Sukhoi as well. I very timidly spoke to him next to his Suk on one of the trade days - no idea if he understood a word I said. I was a fledgling aerobatic pilot, flying a wonderful aeroplane called a Bellanca Decathalon. I think he was peeved that this decadent young Westerner was drooling all over his beautiful Su-26!

The Russians fly like they are on rails - the discipline and skill they have is incredible. Some top aerobatic guys here back around 2000 paid to have Nikolai Nikitiuk (past World Champion) come to Australia for coaching. One guy (the one I mentioned who died practicing for airshow work in his Pitts S-1D) told me at the time Nicolai had him flying so hard that he was vomiting all over the cockpit. Nicolai said "Clean it up, get back in cockpit!". I had the pleasure of pencilling (assisting with scoring) Nicolai at the Australian Championships back in 2000. Nicolai had a great set of gold teeth in his mouth. He said to me "Australian judging is very poor!".

Got a ride once in a Su-29 (two seat Sukhoi) here once. It was absolutely incredible. I've never flown an aeroplane so sensitive - like trying to balance a marble in the centre of a sheet of glass you're holding. The stick looks like it's a tractor part - so bloody thick and big! The roll rate is 360 degrees/second. Nic gave me a go and I did some simple aero's - getting a feel for it. He then took over and dove the Suk at the ground doing over 400 kph. 7.5 G pull to vertical and then he did 4 vertical rolls - absolutely wicked stuff! I've dreamt of owning a Suk ever since! Sadly Nic died in a Strikemaster near Bathurst when the wing departed in flight killing him and a passenger on his 50th birthday joy flight - bloody horrible stuff.

Nic's Su-29



So, that is my experience with the Russkies! Oh what about that incredible An-124 doing aero's at the Bicentennial! I almost crashed my car whilst attempting to park as it thundered down the runway at dot feet! O'pps - rogue pilot alert - WOOP WOOP WOOP!



Cheers

Adam

[Adam the Akrodude]

Sorry Adam, but I cant see a distinction between aerobatics, and what you call circus flying, to me they are one and the same. I think you are trying to make too big a distinction between the two, where one doesn't exist.

All aeros are inherently risky to a degree, your recovery from unusual attitudes with the altimeter unwinding was probably only safe becasue your risk assesment said have plenty of altitude before trying it, so asses the risk and put in controls, probably less so with this, but not a circus stunt in my opinion, just a bit of wow for an Advert. Is this the most risky Ad ever made, don't think so, seem to remember one with wing chutes, going through a rock archway in China.

That they did a very good risk assesment is clear, same as any aerobatic pilot does, both go through the routine before they fly, those that don't are history, it's mostly the unplanned events that come unstuck, I see no more risk in this than the famous barrell roll by the Boeing Dash 80 over the power boat races at Seattle, with a crowd of 100k below, Tex Johnson did that as an unplanned manouvere, probably more risk, but as we know a good barrell roll is not that stressful, Joe Public probably thinks otherwise though, certainly had the wow factor.

Sorry Graeme - there is a massive difference between that you see at an air show and at a aerobatic comp - chalk and cheese. You'll have to got to a aerobatic comp to understand. For a start, competition aero's is flown at a higher altitude for the judges to see properly. Very high discipline is required - it's all about perfection.

Cheers

Adam

[hrtpaul]

Cos we don't agree with you Adam, we don't get it? WTF????? Ok then. Lets hope you don't fly in a plane I fix cos apparently I don't get it

[oz rb fan]

Hi Leigh

Yay, someone who gets it! Some of my happiest moments on this planet, moments where I have shouted with pure joy have been in the cockpit of a little aerobatic machine. I've met RAAF fast jet pilots who would rather fly their little akro mounts than what they do in their day job. Still, I would have happily cut my left arm off to say the same thing mind you!

I think (but could be wrong) that the Suk pilot at the Bicentennial was Victor Smolin. He had been a Unlimited aerobatic competition pilot for USSR back in the 80's - a time when the USSR was winning all the time. I think he worked for Sukhoi as well. I very timidly spoke to him next to his Suk on one of the trade days - no idea if he understood a word I said. I was a fledgling aerobatic pilot, flying a wonderful aeroplane called a Bellanca Decathalon. I think he was peeved that this decadent young Westerner was drooling all over his beautiful Su-26!

The Russians fly like they are on rails - the discipline and skill they have is incredible. Some top aerobatic guys here back around 2000 paid to have Nikolai Nikitiuk (past World Champion) come to Australia for coaching. One guy (the one I mentioned who died practicing for airshow work in his Pitts S-1D) told me at the time Nicolai had him flying so hard that he was vomiting all over the cockpit. Nicolai said "Clean it up, get back in cockpit!". I had the pleasure of pencilling (assisting with scoring) Nicolai at the Australian Championships back in 2000. Nicolai had a great set of gold teeth in his mouth. He said to me "Australian judging is very poor!".

Got a ride once in a Su-29 (two seat Sukhoi) here once. It was absolutely incredible. I've never flown an aeroplane so sensitive - like trying to balance a marble in the centre of a sheet of glass you're holding. The stick looks like it's a tractor part - so bloody thick and big! The roll rate is 360 degrees/second. Nic gave me a go and I did some simple aero's - getting a feel for it. He then took over and dove the Suk at the ground doing over 400 kph. 7.5 G pull to vertical and then he did 4 vertical rolls - absolutely wicked stuff! I've dreamt of owning a Suk ever since! Sadly Nic died in a Strikemaster near Bathurst when the wing departed in flight killing him and a passenger on his 50th birthday joy flight - bloody horrible stuff.

Nic's Su-29



So, that is my experience with the Russkies! Oh what about that incredible An-124 doing aero's at the Bicentennial! I almost crashed my car whilst attempting to park as it thundered down the runway at dot feet! O'pps - rogue pilot alert - WOOP WOOP WOOP!



Cheers

Adam

that display of the AN 124 still has me gobsmacked 27 years later
i know what you mean about the difference between airshow flying and competition aerobatics (still remember the televised,series down here in the 1980's).....pip boremans death still riles me as it was completely unnecessary(and i really wanted to see the Samson).....btw as for this being a first as redbull claims...apparently not according to some US friends......it has been done years ago with T6's

Paul

[Adam the Akrodude]

Cos we don't agree with you Adam, we don't get it? WTF????? Ok then. Lets hope you don't fly in a plane I fix cos apparently I don't get it

Oh Almighty LAME from the North, before you smite me down with your torque wrench, please tell how I have offended thee?

Dude, I was specifically responding to Leigh's comments specifically in relation to aerobatics and the Bicentennial air show. Perhaps so as not to offend, I should have copied Leigh's comments in - now copied below.

[u][u]Leigh said: [/u][/u]

Adam, I really liked your comments about aerobatics and the video. I can absolutely see the point in aerobatics and it must be a sheer joy to move around in the sky like that. (Not that I will ever know since my eyes prevent me from getting the most basic licence.) One of my most vivid memories of the Bicentennial Air Show at Richmond and watching an aerobatic display (given by a Russian as I recall) which was breathtaking. The precision of his flying was amazing, it was as though there were invisible rails in the air that he flew along because there was no indecision, faltering or hesitation. I enjoy listening to (and watching) classical pianists and the best of them play with the skill that that pilot showed. He was a true virtuoso and the highlight of the show for me. I didn't see any risk taking at all in his performance although he must have taken some risks in rehearsing and practicing the routine. And, as far as I could see, nobody in the crowd was watching. Their loss.



That's what I was responding to specifically. As I have said repeatedly in this topic, we're all of course allowed to express our own opinions - we're all right and we're all wrong - it's all relative. Some people love the RB formation hangar flight - great! Some people think it's a PR stunt - nothing wrong with this either. What it is not is anything to do with AEROBATICS! According to Oz-RB Paul, it may even not have been a world first with is fascinating!

You haven't been drinking to much Red Bull have you? Just checking!

BTW, I couldn't afford you as a LAME anyway - couldn't even afford the dodgy one's we used down at Moorabbin on KGZ!

Cheers

Adam

[F-27pax]

I found a part of the aerobatics display on You Tube on a video of the Bicentennial airshow. It is as immaculate as I recalled but only a part of the routine is shown. The aeroplane is described as a Su-26M but the pilot is only named as a Russian Champion. At least I now know what colours to paint that Su-26 that I have among my Treasure.

The main point to remember about flying is that all of it is inherently dangerous. Humans do what they can to reduce that risk as much as possible, but how many seasons of Air Crash Investigation are there? What we are probably disagreeing about is the allowable level of risk for any particular form of flying. Some think that flying through a hangar in formation is acceptable, others not. Where you stand depends on personal experience and whether or not your livelihood depends on keeping aviation's reputation for safety as high as possible. Did Red Bull push the envelope further than it should have been or not, that is the question.

On the other question of who is right or wrong. Taking the view that everyone's attitude is as acceptable as everyone else's is a very post-modern view, but I doubt that there is room for such abstract ideas in the real world. Particularly aviation which is very much dependent on concrete realities in which the right answer saves lives and the wrong answer loses them. In the world of aviation the old fashioned dialectic has to come into play to find a resolution that all will agree to, or at least submit to. (In writing this paragraph I've just given myself a great idea for a conference paper. I must make some notes.)

Best

Leigh

[Adam the Akrodude]

Hi Oz RB fan Paul

We've talked about this before but I too was glued to the TV when the Phillips Cup was on here in Australia. That period was really the pinnacle of competition aerobatics in Australia. It was incredible to have Russian pilots here competing in aerobatics - such a amazing thing at the time. It was still during the Cold War as well.

International pilots included:
Victor Smolin
Kermit Weeks
Geoff Selvey
Henry Haigh
Gordon Price
The "Spaghetti Team!" - Eric Muller & Sergio Dallan - flew Guido's Laser (VH-KGZ!). Apparently Guido didn't fly as he'd been too involved flying his Sea Fury.
Richard Goode
and of course Frank Fry was there.

Here's Frank's Laser



Here's how Guido's Laser VH-KGZ looked back in the 80's



This was a period when there was an interest in aerobatics in this county - back in the 80's. Sadly, this is not the case any more. Here's an article about Frank Fry and his Laser.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1300&dat=19820211&id=ZwNVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=d5QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4590,4851025&hl=en

It was also Eugeniy Frolov who flew the Su-26 at the Bicentennial. I was wrong in thinking it was Victor Smolin.



Apol's to all for the thread drift - but this is "REAL AEROBATICS"!

Cheers

Adam

[Adam the Akrodude]

Rather than ruin HRT Paul's post any further (than I have already ), for those interested, I've posted a short description on competition aerobatics. I just want to attempt at least to show just how different it is to what to see at a air show. It's highly disciplined and quite frankly a lot more boring to watch than what you see at the air show - it's not a great spectator sport. It's more like dressage horse competition - pretty anal stuff really! It's a common enough joke that competition aerobatics is spending a lot of money to be told you are a shit pilot! What it is though is one of the most exciting and demanding (both physically and mentally) thing you can do in a aeroplane!

As I've mentioned I've pretty peeved that Red Bull refer to two aeroplanes in formation going through a hangar as a "world-first feat in aerobatics". So, if you're interested, take a peek in Aero-tech Talk for my diatribe on competition aero's.

Cheers

Adam

[tor lives]

Haven't seen a thread develop like this since the good ol AMI days.
Well done to Paul for starting it, and all others who contributed to and evolved it
I love the fact that there is such diversely different views and opinions, yet none of the bitter personal attacks and silliness that many of us have witnessed in the past on other sites. This is the sort of robust and energetic discussion forum I had in mind when I started this site.
TOR
PS: Paul, you can post all the "silly vids" you want, because look what you started. The level of interest and participation your initial post has generated can only be good for our site, it's members, and sponsors. Thanks