F-35 - Debunking the critics

[BradG]

What concerns me about those submarines is you are trying to power what is essentially a nuclear boat with diesel and batteries. I seriously doubt it will have decent endurance and anyway, if we were serious about area denial we would buy Virginia class nuclear attack submarines. 10 of those puppies for half the price of the Barracuda's and Australia is virtually bullet proof from invasion. They come with 30+ years before refueling and you'd just pay the yanks to do that for you. I'd scrap most of the surface fleet, get rid of those landing ships and stop the air warfare destroyers too, just no need for them.

As submariners say, there's only two types of warship; submarines and targets.

[Michel]

I am not an expert at all in such technology-politicaly bal-bla-bla thing, but somethings bothers me a bit.

It seems the F-35 is all about Stealth right ? it would lose almost all its fancy advantages if it can be detected. It is also supposed to stay for about 40-50 years in service right? so does it mean that there is a certitude that radar technology will not improved for the next 40-50 years so it won't be able to detect this rather ugly aircraft?
Did Putin gave his word that his guys won't look into finding a way to detect them? what about the Chinese? same?

And what about the cost of flying the stuff? it reminds me when the French Air force got more or less forced to accept the Rafale, one of their first comment was that this plane was so expensive, they were pretty much scared to use it for training...and I am pretty sure a Rafale is a bit cheaper than a F-35, France has about 60 millions people, so with budget a bit different compared to us with say 22 millions people in our country now?

There is also the rule of numbers...what is best? only few state of the art equipment, or a massive quantity of cheaper equipment, a bit like the Tiger Tanks and the Shermans...different philosophies...we know who won...
To lose an extremely expensive equipment hurts a lot, to lose cheaper and easy to built ones easily replaceable is much less painful.
The loss of an SR-71 almost completely in Titanium would have been a terrible situation...the loss of 10 Mig-25 made in steel, not that much...very probably happened anyway !

Time will tell, but hopefully it won't be during a conflict...

My 2 cents opinion.

[Cap'n Wannabe]

Just thought I'd resurrect this thread by reminding you all of just how butt-ugly the F-35 is.

Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.

What's cooler folks?

This?



or this?

Why this, of course!

[Adam the Akrodude]

I am not an expert at all in such technology-politicaly bal-bla-bla thing, but somethings bothers me a bit.

It seems the F-35 is all about Stealth right ? it would lose almost all its fancy advantages if it can be detected. It is also supposed to stay for about 40-50 years in service right? so does it mean that there is a certitude that radar technology will not improved for the next 40-50 years so it won't be able to detect this rather ugly aircraft?
Did Putin gave his word that his guys won't look into finding a way to detect them? what about the Chinese? same?

And what about the cost of flying the stuff? it reminds me when the French Air force got more or less forced to accept the Rafale, one of their first comment was that this plane was so expensive, they were pretty much scared to use it for training...and I am pretty sure a Rafale is a bit cheaper than a F-35, France has about 60 millions people, so with budget a bit different compared to us with say 22 millions people in our country now?

There is also the rule of numbers...what is best? only few state of the art equipment, or a massive quantity of cheaper equipment, a bit like the Tiger Tanks and the Shermans...different philosophies...we know who won...
To lose an extremely expensive equipment hurts a lot, to lose cheaper and easy to built ones easily replaceable is much less painful.
The loss of an SR-71 almost completely in Titanium would have been a terrible situation...the loss of 10 Mig-25 made in steel, not that much...very probably happened anyway !

Time will tell, but hopefully it won't be during a conflict...

My 2 cents opinion.

Hey Michel

"Stealth" is but one aspect of what the F-35 is all about. LO - low observability covers a number of things - the shaping of the aircraft, the RAM used and the sensors used (passive modes) and "connectability" into the network (how information is shared). One needs to think about the F-35 as a platform for which "Apps" will continuously be developed over the next 50 years. The versions rolling off the production line now will be different to those rolling off in 25-30 years time - just as other fighters evolved and have been developed over their lifespan. F-35 has the most advanced sensors ever put in a fighter. The AESA APG-81 is a 4th Gen AESA. Russia and China are still developing their first AESA. Then there is the DAS/EOTS system - far far in advance of the Russian IRST system. Not much is known about the BAE ASQ-239 EA/EW system, but it's the most advanced in the world. The genius of the F-35 is how it "fuses" all these sensors giving the pilot a gods eye like view of the battle space. Pilots have talked of feeling like Superman flying the F-35.

Both Russia & China have discovered just how complex and expensive developing 5th Gen is. Let's have a look at Russia with their 5th Gen attempt - the Su-57. Nice large aeroplane with great range sure. Russia needs fighters now with great range as they simply cannot afford to build enough to cover their vast country. In the almost eight years since it's first flight, only 9 prototypes have been built. The correct engine is still three years away and it won't be until the mid-2020's that the Su-57 will be available to the RuAF in this form. Some Su-57s have been passed over to the RuAF for formation of a test squadron. So, in a nutshell the Su-57 is around 20 years behind the F-22 in development. It's no wonder the RuAF doesn't want them yet and has purchased Su-35/34s instead. Russia's defence budget is about 1/9th or so that of USAs alone. Indian Air Force chiefs have recently publically stated they don't want the FGFA (India's version of the Su-57). India has been asked to cough up $6-7 Billion for development costs to Russia for which they will receive 4 of Russia's prototype Su-57s!! India is also having to cough up a similar amount to upgrade their Su-30MKIs of which they've lost 7 already and had many engine failures. Watch this space regarding India and the FGFA program.

China is in a similar boat with the J-20 program with China openly acknowledging it's having major woes with their indigenous engine program. It's going to be years before the J-20 flies with the W-15 engines. It's openly known that China is behind Russia with AESA radar tech - hence China's decision to buy 24 Su-35s and exploit their technology. Both Russia & China will get there eventually with their almost 5th Gen programs - China may in fact pass Russia in this regard as its defence budget is a lot more than Russia. As it stands at the moment, both countries are many years behind in 5th Gen development and deployment. I think Russia may eventually get around 100 or so Su-57s and China a similar number of J-20s, perhaps a few more. There will be 3000+ F-35s across the globe.

Regarding radar tech, agreed that both Russia and China will further advance in radar tech. "LO" does not and never has meant invisible - it's both technology and tactics. As one side evolves, so does the other to counter this. China has stated that it's developing "Quantum radar" tech. Fabulous. When in history have ground based radar systems made a air strike impossible - never. Israel has taken out Syria's S-300 systems without loss. Russia's Nebo-M system used three different radar frequencies to detect, track and target "stealth" aircraft - three radars. What happens if one is knocked out - it's fucked. F-35 is part of a network. One can't think of it just as a fighter - that's 20th Century stuff. It really is a F/A/E-35. F-35s have demonstrated doing targeting for Aegis/SM-6 systems - this is huge stuff. There is a land attack version of the SM-6 missile coming as well. RAAF will also have the JSM - a joint development with Norway.

Western (we, the good guys!) global intelligence/surveillance/reconnaissance (ISR) assets are enormous. Exercises like Red Flag (the largest and most complex military aviation exercise) use all these assets - space, cyber, everything. Do the other side exercise to this degree - no, not remotely.

Re -Rafale, check the pricing Michel, it's a lot more expensive than the F-35. Full rate rolling out the plant door cost for the F-35 is currently just under $100 Million and this is going down to at least $85 Million with full rate production, possibly as low as $80 Million as this is what the USAF is pushing hard for. Look how much India is paying for Rafale. There was a hint that both Rafales and Typhoons were smashed by F-22s and F-35s at the Atlantic Trident exercise earlier this year - they never got close enough to get a shot off. Germany is now knocking on LM's door now as the Luftwaffe is desperate to replace their ol' worn out junker Tornados. The Luftwaffe is having a hard time keeping both the Tornados and the Typhoons flying at a acceptable rate. If the Typhoon is so great, why does the Luftwaffe now want the F-35?

It's impossible to get thousands of people to tell the same lie. If the F-35 was in fact junk, we'd know all about it - simple human nature. The opposite message though is coming through with more and more countries knocking on LMs door for the classified brief as a precursor to potential purchase - Germany and UAE being recent examples. When a Israeli ex-air force general publically states that the F-35 can "see" all of the ME, this is really something.

As it stands, the F-35 is I think a good 10+ years ahead of anything else being developed. Sure, both Russia and China are working on counter tech. This does not mean though that the good guys will sit on their rumps and not continue to develop the F-35. As it stands, there is new engine tech coming - the "ACE" engine. LM is working on a fighter sized laser missile defence system right now. Three A/A missile programs have been funded - a new long range missile, a replacement for the AIM-9X and a short range defensive missile. Here, the RAAF will get the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) and I bet they will also get the AARGM-ER (long range anti-radar missile) for the F-35. The Small Diameter Bomb is on order as is the longer range AIM-120D. RAN are getting Aegis/SM-6 for which F-35s can do targeting and firing of these missiles - this is a big thing Michel. Think about what a precision attack using SM-6 land attack variant missiles could do to a naughty country's infrastructure - hitting turbine sections of power stations (cost - hundreds of millions to replace, plus a good two year wait!), comm's networks, oil refineries C-cubed defence networks, etc, etc. A couple of dozen missiles can do hundreds of millions of dollars damage and practically bring a country back to the stone age - all without using nukes.

Comparing one fighter versus another I don't think is relevant any more. One needs to compare network versus network and how all the components of each network fit together. By 2025, the RAAF will have the most advanced air force in the world with the oldest aircraft being the C-130J! The E-7 Wedgie is raved about around the world as I understand it.

All that I've read to date is that the "users" themselves love the F-35. I've not come across one bad revue or comment. Is it perfect - of course not, but I think it is the nearest thing so far to being the perfect all round "fighter". F-22 was never available to the RAAF and RAAF preferred the F-35 over the F-22 in any case. F-35 has a larger combat radius versus F-22 and has a larger internal weaps bay for A/G stuff. F-22 can only drop GBU-32 (1000Ib) bombs - not the larger GBU-31 (2000Ib). F-22 cannot drop laser guided bombs at all - it's just cleared for the GBU-32 and the SDB - that's it. F-22 costs a shit load more to operate and has been out of production now for years and never will return to production.

I'm just a interested amateur - that's all. I'm fascinated in the sensor tech in particular. The genius of the F-35 is bringing in all this info and being able to present it to the pilot without overwhelming him/her.

Some links that may be of interest:

https://news.usni.org/2016/09/13/video-successful-f-35-sm-6-live-fire-test-points-expansion-networked-naval-warfare

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/psychological-effect-f-35-stealth-legacy-fighter-2017-5?r=US&IR=T

Pilots love the F-35.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2016/08/05/operational_assessment_of_the_f-35a_109673-2.html

IRST isn't all it's made out to be - and this is being proven in exercises. IRST is good for only shorter range - say up to 30nm.

http://www.businessinsider.sg/irst-cant-stop-f-22-f-35-2016-8/#jhbSWwrQ0OUhHCLW.97

Keep in mind to that the RAAF has the E-18G and the Next Generation Jammer pod is coming too. RAAF will get this for sure.

https://thediplomat.com/2014/08/the-f-35-vs-the-vhf-threat/

[tor lives]

You sure you are not working for LM Adam??
TOR

[Adam the Akrodude]

You sure you are not working for LM Adam??
TOR

I can't confirm nor deny that . No of course not - but I am kinda obsessed by its tech. For those that could be bothered, there is a "Oh God" moment when one starts joining the dots. Just my humble opinion, but the F-35 is more than a war winner, it's a war stopper. Just too many governments are trying to get into the F-35 action now TOR. UAE & Germany are the latest. Indian Air Force really wants to dump the FGFA and go F-35, but of course they can't - WAY too political and WAY too much money involved with HAL.

Now, you'd reckon the Israeli's know a thing or two about air combat. Israel has S-300 & S-400 batteries just to the north and east and that detachment of Russkies at the Khmeimim Air Base in Syria - so Israel must have the best kit available. If the F-35 was no good, they'd have ordered something else. Well, the Israelis say the F-35 meets its expectations. Oh, and once getting to around 5000', it "sees" the entire ME! So yeah, I'm a fan and I don't care what it looks like.

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/08/israel-f-35-jets-security-idf-air-force-aerial-superiority.html

[Cap'n Wannabe]

Still butt-friggen-ugly...

[Adam the Akrodude]

Still butt-friggen-ugly...

Ahem, just who wears glasses? Dude, if defence of the realm was up to you, Australia would be protected by 10,000 C172s!

Looks don't matter any more cause' looks don't kill!

[Cap'n Wannabe]

Still butt-friggen-ugly...

Ahem, just who wears glasses? Dude, if defence of the realm was up to you, Australia would be protected by 10,000 C172s!

Looks don't matter any more cause' looks don't kill!

Exactly my point...maybe you should try them!

[BradG]

The fact is, if the cloak of stealth gets penetrated, then it's going to cause a lot of problems for anyone with the F-35. It's been proven that stealth can be detected, it's been done in the past and it's why any time the F-117 was deployed, it operated with conventional jamming, just how much the US has never released publicly but the suspicion is that the radar jamming deployed with them was extensive.