In case anyone is interested

[Adam the Akrodude]

I reckon the guys on the ground would have a very different view of that. Maybe in 50 years there won't be bods on the ground but until then they'll still need CAS and no aircraft including the shitbox F-35 can do what an A-10 can do

Ah, not so sure about that. I'm sure plenty of grunts were happy enough to see B-52's and B-1's making nice figure 8 contrails over the mountains of Afghanistan dropping JDAM's exactly where needed. This is the current form of CAS - above FL200 and dropping precision weapons either laser guided or GPS guided. The 35 will never get down in the weeds. It will stay nice and high and use it's phenomenal ASAR radar plus it's IR/Laser targeting suite to take out bad guys on the ground. I've read that the ASAR is capable of burning out AAA/SAM radars such is it's power. I doubt very much it's gun would be used much on A/G situations, but it's there - more for last ditch use once everything else expended - keeping bad guys heads down when troops in contact, taking out soft targets, etc? Would you as a aviator rather be dodging mountains and 12.5 and 37mm AAA, or be nice and relaxed above 20k feet in air conditioned comfort doing the point/click/kaboom stuff? If the sales jargon is to be believed, systems like the F-35 and Avenger, etc will be fitted with laser weapons down the track.

For the real A/G eyeball to eyeball stuff - I guess that's where attack helicopters come in - for lobbing that Hellfire through a certain window, etc.

I do love the A-10, but I do think it's had it's day. There are now advanced competing technologies more favoured and something has to give. It's always been the ugly duckling in the USAF. I think the current serving USAF CoS is a ex-A-10 driver and even he sees it very hard to hang on to the ol' A-10.

UCAV's like the Avenger are the future perhaps acting totally autonomously or as a "swarm" under the supervision of say F-35's (Master/Slave). Laser weapons are on the way as well - say within the next 10-15 years in airborne versions perhaps. There have been just such massive strides in technology in the last 25 years - stealth, ASAR, UAV's, lasers and precision weapons.

Pretty awful GA sales video, but it does point the way to the future of UCAV's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ofIRiXb-90

Laser stuff - all will become smaller, lighter and more powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL9_Tldmrhs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMfYUyrKRng

Guns - yawn - who needs 'em! So last Century!

[Adam the Akrodude]

Absolutely agree....but in the future no aircraft will need to do what the A-10 does now. Warfare is changing, this is why the A-10 is being slatted for retirement,
TOR

Might wanna make sure the likes of the Taliban etc get that memo then cos otherwise there's gonna be some seriously embarrassed individuals(and pissed off grunts) if and when they need CAS and there's no A-10 type aircraft to the rescue. Last time someone said that they didn't need a gun they were badly, BADLY wrong. Just sayin...... Last century or not, that's just how it is. Everyone carries on about stealth this and stealth that. Big friggen deal. As has been shown in past history, when someone makes an advance, the bad guy finds a way around it.

Big friggin deal huh - stealth works as proven over Bosnia/Serbia and Iraq plus some other places. China and Russia are spending bucket loads of money trying to catch up and they're a good 10-15 years behind. What's the old saying "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"!
CAS is just done a little differently these days. Have a little faith man!

[hrtpaul]

Uh huh stealth works a treat yeah. Wasn't a F-117 or 2 lost to groundfire over Bosnia way. Mmmmm stealth is awesome Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise it's the be all and end all that everyone goes on and on about

[tor lives]

Uh huh stealth works a treat yeah. Wasn't a F-117 or 2 lost to groundfire over Bosnia way. Mmmmm stealth is awesome Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise it's the be all and end all that everyone goes on and on about

yeah....ya right. Maybe we should revert back to Sopwith Camels instead of these modern fan dangled things hey Paul
TOR

[Adam the Akrodude]

Uh huh stealth works a treat yeah. Wasn't a F-117 or 2 lost to groundfire over Bosnia way. Mmmmm stealth is awesome Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise it's the be all and end all that everyone goes on and on about

Have a chat to the F-22 driver that snuck right up behind a Iranian F-4, most likely increasing the weekly laundry bill of said Rhino driver - game over!
Stealth doesn't mean invisible, but it makes the impossible possible with much reduced losses. Think about those F-117's over Baghdad first night Gulf War One. B-2's repeating this process GW 2.
What's not to love about stealth - kinda well proven huh.

[hrtpaul]

Have a chat to the F-35 driver that snuck right up behind a Iranian F-4, most likely increasing the weekly laundry bill of said Rhino driver - game over!
Stealth doesn't mean invisible, but it makes the impossible possible with much reduced losses. Think about those F-117's over Baghdad first night Gulf War One. B-2's repeating this process GW 2.
What's not to love about stealth -kinda well proven huh.

F-35??? That's a bit of wishful thinking I would've thought considering they're still flight testing the shitbox. A F-22 maybe but not an F-35. Besides mate, the good old F-4 wouldn't be much of an opponent for this SUPER fighter of yours anyways so it's not really much of a comparison And while I'm at it, sneaking up that close to your opponent as you guys have said, won't happen. But lets juss pretend if it did, then I'm tipping there's not a lot of point firing a missile at it. Oh yeah if you had a gun you could still kill the bad guy. Oops we deleted the gun cos "Oh they are so last century" The Gulf Wars? Um I think you'll find the bad guys have also made just as many gains as the good guys since then mate and you'd be naive to think otherwise. I'm not convinced that this POS is worth the $$$$ that we are spending on it for the supposed capability we're getting. For our sake I hope I'm wrong but IMHO it ain't looking good. Anyways as I said previously, you can try all you like but you have nothing that has or will convince me otherwise yet. As for the Sopwith Camel, at least it looks like a fighter with purpose

[tor lives]

[ Oh yeah if you had a gun you could still kill the bad guy. Oops we deleted the gun cos "Oh they are so last century"

Yeah give the jet drivers back their gun, cause it was a good weapon for it's time, and while we are at it.... better re-issue them with a bow and arrow too, cause they were also good "close in" weapons for their time.....hell and better give em a sling shot while we are at it, just in case the more sophisticated bow and arrow doesn't work, because it is so hi tech
TOR

[Adam the Akrodude]

Apol's Paul - The F-35 initially popped into my comment on the Iranian F-4 intercept due to the stupid auto-correct on my phone. I had "F-35" as a valid word in my phone and it wrote this over the F-22 - stupid phone! I wasn't comparing the F-4 to the F-22 at all - just a example of how stealth works.

As I've said before, all cool that you don't like the 35 - I get that. What I find interesting is the level of excitement at senior level - by senior government decision makers, senior military and the users themselves. This to me is a example of the result being greater than the sum of the parts - stealthy/slippery airframe - tick, massive engine - tick, worlds best AESA radar - tick, advanced precision weapons, slick software and datalink- tick! Result - what can't be done with this aeroplane! Time will tell exactly how capable the F-35 will be - looks pretty amazing so far. You can't just think of it as a F-18 replacement - it's way more than that.

The two major aeroplanes in the western world in this 21st Century are the 787 for hauling people around the world and the F-35 for hauling bombs and missiles all over the world. Civil and military aircraft operators who don't have these two aeroplanes in service will be of their opposition!

[hrtpaul]

I agree with ya regarding the 787 but that's about as far as I go. BTW I'm not anti F35 (though it does look pathetic IMHO). What I am anti about is spending a shitload on something that's no where near even proving itself in the real world. As for the "senior government decision makers, senior military and the users themselves" being excited about it, who cares. We both know it doesn't mean a pinch of dog crap what they think cos they are so far removed from the REAL world it ain't funny. There's a handful of pilots that fly these things in testing and that's about it so far. And all of these people have to say it's awesome because that's the government/company line that must be towed. Lets just hope that the real users are happy, Because after all, they're the ones that really matter. Not some senior RAAF/USAF/USN officer/government knob making some apparenty important defence decisions and spending our tax dollars in the process. Anyways. I'd better go and play with my so last century F-4 model

[Tony P]

I hear echoes of the F111 debate. Look how that turned out.