Falklands War Chit Chat

[Adam the Akrodude]

Ray, that has to be the luckiest 707 on the planet. Maggie must have been previously engaged, or perhaps had a soft spot for the 707' when word came it was tracking the fleet! Perhaps the plan was to scare the Argies into leaving the Falklands?
Hindsight is 20:20. Had she known the damage the Argies would inflict on the RN, perhaps she would have authorised it's shoot down? I guess at that time though, the Brit's and that wonderfully effective body called the UN were still trying to get a diplomatic solution as the Fleet sailed South.
Very interesting subject.

[tor lives]

Ray, that has to be the luckiest 707 on the planet

Out of absolute fascination for and interest in the subject, I have intently studied Argentine Air Force Boeing 707 activities and operations leading up to and during the Falklands war. Two things were/are patently apparent and obvious:

1/ The balls, dedication, professionalism, and shear bravery of the crews concerned, taking on very high risk, long range reconnaissance mission in essentially an unarmed civilian-spec passenger jet. (It should be noted that all Argentine military aviators involved in the Malvinas War were renowned and respected for these common traits of professionalism and bravery).
2/ These guys were just bloody lucky they did not loose a jet during the war, as they were intercepted many times by SHARs and had several Sea Darts fired at them from surface vessels requiring some pretty extreme manoeuvring on the part of the big ol 707 to evade these missiles, (way beyond what the Boeing flight manual said could be done with the aeroplane, but to quote Joe Patroni from the original "Airport" movie, "that's one nice thing about the 707 son.....she can do everything but read" ).
Ahhhh the mighty 707.....the best jet warplane money can buy, (who needs F-35s )
Ray
PS: What the Argentine military fleets of Fokker F-28s, Lockheed Electras, Short Skyvans, Learjet 35s, HS-125s and other essentially "civil" types undertook and achieved during the Malvinas War is equally as amazing and death-defying as the feats of the 707s.....talk about behind-the-scenes unsung heros!!!

[Adam the Akrodude]

Agreed Ray. Without a doubt, all those Argie pilots had massive forged steel cojones. Many of their missions over the South Atlantic were at the extreme limits of their range, with inferior equipment and weapons and fighting one of the worlds best equipped and trained armed force - practically suicide missions.
Before initiating that fiasco, those Junta leaders perhaps should of read up on British history when it comes to understanding the British "Death before dishonour" psyche.

[_BlackHawk_]

You do realise that the Argies came within a bees dick of winning. Aside from the ships sunk; HMS Alacrity, HMS Glamorgan (later severely damage by an Exocet) and RFA Sir Bedivere were damaged by near misses while HMS Glasgow, HMS Antrim, HMS Argonaut, RFA Sir Lancelot, Sir Galahad, HMS Broadsword, British Wye and HMS Plymouth were all hit by bombs that failed to explode. 6 better fuses and the Royal Navy would have been humiliated by said inferior equipment.

[Adam the Akrodude]

You do realise that the Argies came within a bees dick of winning. Aside from the ships sunk; HMS Alacrity, HMS Glamorgan (later severely damage by an Exocet) and RFA Sir Bedivere were damaged by near misses while HMS Glasgow, HMS Antrim, HMS Argonaut, RFA Sir Lancelot, Sir Galahad, HMS Broadsword, British Wye and HMS Plymouth were all hit by bombs that failed to explode. 6 better fuses and the Royal Navy would have been humiliated by said inferior equipment.

Yes, well known about the fuse issue and other vessels hit. Don't agree about the "bees dick of winning" statement. Britain would not have given up if those ships were lost. What you are suggesting goes against 1000 years of English history - Death before dishonour" ol' boy! Certainly not whilst Maggie stood watch - maybe if it happened present day!

[_BlackHawk_]

You don't think the loss of at least 10-12 ships, including 9 warships would have no effect? It would have severely weakened air defense over bomb alley and my point of view comes directly from Lord Craig.

[tor lives]

The UK did suffer some significant loses that's for sure....but the outcome of the Falklands War was always going to be the same. If UK loses had been so severe as to impact on the military outcome of the conflict, the US would have seen to it that those loses would have immediately been made good, (think US ships and aircraft hurriedly re-flagged and on short-notice "loan" etc). This is not unprecedented....the US did exactly the same thing for Israel when they were in the poo!!!
Ray

[Nillus]

Too many times in history the resilience & resourcefulness of the Brits has been underestimated.

Argentine forces had much trouble with their Exocets. A team of French technicians were sent to rectify. The results were stellar for the Argentinians & the French. Hi 5's all 'round.

Not so much for British sailors.

Who would have thought that weapons designed, built, tested and sold by the French would be used against her old friend who had defended her against aggressors to the tune of millions of sons & fathers. I know a few Royal Marine Commandos that are not so placatory...and they think very little of the average Argentinean fighting man that they met on the field.

[Adam the Akrodude]

Hey Brad

Do you honestly think Maggie would have pulled the pin on Falklands if more RN ships had been lost and troops already landed in Falkland Sound? The fact is though they weren't. The Argies came in too low and dropped too close for the fuses to work, with many bombs punching right through these vessels. Had they dropped higher, the Argie jets would have been far more vulnerable to British air defences, so what's the point of this argument? The Argie's were forced to drop too close and the fuses didn't work - end of story. It's a bit like saying what if the French had used different tactics at Agincourt, what if the panzers had been released earlier at Normandy, what if different tactics had been employed with the 262, etc, etc, etc.

Maggie also had far more options up her sleeve as well. What if SAS had been landed on mainland Argentina to take out the Argentinian airforce - stuffing hand grenades down the intakes of those Mirages/Daggers and Skyhawks as a example? Or perhaps British cruise missiles launched at down town Buenos Aires? Maggie could have authorised many more military options given different circumstances. There's no limit to how many WIF's we could all dream up with the Falklands. The Junta seriously underestimated the British response - just like Hitler did when invading Poland. The Brit's are at their finest when their backs are against the wall, as history shows us over the last few hundred years. Luck has a element too, but you do your best to make your luck, as did Henry V at the Battle of Agincourt, Dowding did during the BoB, the use of fire ships repelling the Spanish Armada, etc - you use tactics to force the enemy to engage on your terms, not theirs.

Most of those RN vessels hit were designed to be expendable - as air defence picket ships, that is their job - to take the hit instead of more valuable targets within a carrier battle group. They were designed and built for a NATO style engagement with the Russkies. They were of light weight construction, giving them high speed and manoeuvrability. One could argue that perhaps it would have been better if they had been manoeuvring at high speed at sea to the west of the Falklands, rather than being in Falkland Sound (in a few but not all cases). Perhaps if more RN assets had been cruising to the west of the Falklands, this would have meant that the Argies would have had to descend earlier, reducing their range - already at the very limit of their range.

Of course I'm playing armchair Field Marshall (and a bad one at that!). It's the same with the FFG class here - high speed, light weight construction - a anti-air picket ship. They are sitting ducks at low or no speed. I guess the light weigh construction idea was because anything launched from say a Russkie Backfire or sub was always going to be bloody big, so why bother adding all that extra armour when you will sink anyway if hit. When I was with Transfield years ago, I got to have a few visits down to the dockyard seeing the FFG's and ANZAC'c being built and fitted out. Very interesting to see the process of how they bond steel to aluminium and seeing the "modules" welded together. I was told that the FFG's could stop within the length of the ship when travelling at flank speed - by reverse pitching the prop. The bow goes underwater when this happens by a few metres. I doubt it is done often - more a emergency braking manoeuvre.

Of course this is all my opinion above regarding possible Falkland outcomes. I just think you are ignoring several hundred years of British military history in your argument. It would have also been politically intolerable for Maggie to pull the pin as well - would have brought down her government at the very least and totally and forever trashed British international standing - INTOLERABLE I say! My father was English, born in London. He lived through the BoB and the Blitz that followed. He had his collection of bomb parts and shrapnel as a kid. One of his uncle's was killed by a V2 near the end of the war. The English are very stoic - this I know personally. They get on with the job at hand and are at their very finest with their backs against the wall.

[Adam the Akrodude]

Too many times in history the resilience & resourcefulness of the Brits has been underestimated.

Argentine forces had much trouble with their Exocets. A team of French technicians were sent to rectify. The results were stellar for the Argentinians & the French. Hi 5's all 'round.

Not so much for British sailors.

Who would have thought that weapons designed, built, tested and sold by the French would be used against her old friend who had defended her against aggressors to the tune of millions of sons & fathers. I know a few Royal Marine Commandos that are not so placatory...and they think very little of the average Argentinean fighting man that they met on the field.

Don't get me started on the French - those cheese eating surrender monkeys! Opp's I've offended Kev76 - where are you - oh yeah, not here!!! The Brits have either being fighting them are pulling their chestnuts out of the fire for 1000 odd years. Excuse me, I'm a little sensitive at the moment regarding the French, as one Frenchman in particular ensured the Laser was grounded for the last 18 months costing us all a lot of money. Because he couldn't fly, he decided to spoil it for the rest of us - A-HOLE EXTRAORDINAIRE! As my father once said regarding the French "Paris, it's too good for the French!"